raging guitars hi gain

[tomica]

Hello to you all!
This is my first post so I appologise if I'm asking in a wrong place.
Here's what's bothering me:

I've been listening to some guitars done by different bands, and for the sake of this discussion I'm going to concentrate on a particular example; The P.O.D s guitars.

I have recorded my guitar with a lot of gain on the amp ( because it souds right on the speakers ), but when comparing it to P.o.d. s guitars it seems to me that, even though I've got the stereo separation rigt, it just has too much gain and all the instruments are having hard time getting thru the mix, allso even with so much gain it lacks ''definition'' ....

Ok I'm starting to ramble and loosing my train of thought...
My point is : it seems to me that all those guitars are done with layers of different settings (different amps) and much less gain?
Because I think they (guitars) rely on other instruments in the mix like bass guitar, and bass drum (with occasional splash/crash elements) for getting that punch....you know the impact thingie.

Am I on the right track here?

I'm very new to this stuff because I do electronic music

Allso if it would help I could upload exaples comparing my work with the referenced track by the band.

Thank you all, and I appologise for bad grammar and being incoherent

 

[elly-d]

yep youv'e got it already. what you hear as an awesome full sound is probably effected by the other instruments in the mix. if you heard the guitars soloed it would sound much weaker. you get a bigger overall sound if you find the right frequencies in the mix in between the bass and the drums, if you take up the whole spectrum with just the guitar it can get messy. also remember it will be highly compressed i imagine.

 

[Daisy]

I'm starting to ramble and loosing my train of thought...

You'll fit right in over here, then.

 

[Dani Pace]

Welcome to the ramblers section. We all do it sometimes, especialy when we know what we are trying to say but can't find the words to express it. Anyway, you are on the right track, those full guitar sounds are often done by layering many guitar tracks (at lower gain) and adding a little compression. There are other ways to get that sound but layering is pretty common.

 

[tomica]

Hahahaha!
Thank you guys so much, for constructive and funny advices; but you know I hoped I was wrong because I expected something new to me (please don't take that personally) something like a whole new universe of techinques to explore (I know this is.... the guitar thingie but still)
oh there I go again, loosing myself and you (things ussualy sound better in my head).

Anyway mr.Dani Pace could you please tell me, if it is not too inconvenient , something more about other ways of getting ''that'' sound.

Btw if anyone has questions about electronic stuff like glitches, textures, or other whack off stuff I'll be more than happy to contribute with my modest oppinion(s).

Thank you once again ( back to the drawing board

 

[frank_1]

I have a PODxt and when I record it with a hi gain amp like marshall 900 or whatever, it becomes very "lifeless", lacks definition , sounds like a mush of guitar notes. I have to carefully adjust the EQ to get it to sound "decent". If you recorded through a nice tube head and mic then you will have much better results. And yeah once you set the bass and adjust drums and other instruments you will change how the guitars are heard in the mix.

 

[giraffe]

if you heard the guitars soloed it would sound much weaker.

this is soooooooo hard to convince people, but it's very true.


watch your mids, they are way more important to the sound (having them, that is) then you may realize.

 

[tomica]

Yes thank you all; Although I am aware that soloed guitars (in the mix) sound much weaker, the thing is, and it's my guess, that lower part of the guitars spectrum (lower end/ low e string...) are maybe sidechained with ,maybe bass , in a way that bass ''performs'' ducking for frequences below 150 maybe even 120Hz depending on where the snare sits because when I analyzed parts where guitar is solo it seem to have a full sound containing even 100Hz with a rolloff on about ... whell lets say 90Hz.( or maybe that was the bass+guitar and it tricked me into thinking it was just the guitar )
Thats my theory for now

 

[giraffe]

no, no one does that.

 

[tomica]

ahhhh! Damn!
Thank you mr.giraffe.
ok thats one theory that doesn't work, I hope I run out of theories soon
guess I'll just stick with the layering thingie for now

 

[jndietz]

Turn the gain knob down. It'll sound better

 

[starbuck26]

a gift from the gods above

Christmas comes early for Tomica:

http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html#contents

This is the bible.

 

[Dani Pace]

Don't forget when layering multiple guitar tracks, each track has to be treated as a seperate track. It's the variances between the tracks that really broaden the sound. A note held a little longer on one track will make a chopped note on another track sound like the original note was held longer for example. For the different tracks use different guitars, amps, amp settings, whatever it takes to get the variety of sounds which blend together in the mix to give you that full sound. You may (very likely) need to EQ each track a little differently to avoid the tracks becomming muddy sounding. The effect of multiple tracks is cumulative, that's why when you use more tracks you use less gain on each track, otherwise the tracks will slur together and become very muddy sounding. Keep plenty of headroom. The harmonics of the other tracks will effect the overall sound of the guitar tracks, bass, keyboards and other guitars more than drums. A strong bass note can sometimes seem to cancel a harmonic guitar note, keyboards often compete with guitars for the same sonic space. Giving everything it's own sonic space is what makes everything "sit" right in the mix. OK. I'm rambling again and you probably already knew all this anyway.

 

[xltorocksx]

Ive recently discovered that a little delay really adds too the heavyness of your guitar, and I mean a little. Set the delay time on your pedal or recorder as low as it will go and the delay volume"i guess' or level or whatever about halfway. Worked wonders for me anyway.

 

[hardwire666]

One of the harest things for people to figure out on there own when dealing with guitars is that you need far less distortion then you think you do.

 

[tomica]

WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Sweet zombie Jesus!
THANK YOU All (starbuck26, Dani Pace, jndietz, xltorocksx, hardwire666...)!!!

That bible thingie is just what i was looking for
And another note : no worries abot rambling, I got the answers (understood)

anyway about what xltorocksx said on delay my answer would be: I onley use delays set on ms as sends panned on one side for getting stereo (the instrument is panned to the opposite)

once again thank you all, you really gave me a lot to think abot

a hmm... well i thouth I could give you the chance of listening my workout.... so here's what i did before i posted:
http://rapidshare.com/files/103648771/nova_stvar_band3.mp3.html

so ingnore the funny intro, and overpumped drumms (I know it sounds like some clubbie thingie) but guitar is singled out at the end ( oh yes I found a nice place for bass onley it sounds crappy because it's fruity loops boobass/ yea i know.... gonna replace it with trilogy later, so i left it out) oh and this is a sketch for my bands song so if i hear anyone using E G A B D chords I'll sue-hahahaha

oh and allso drumms need to be redune with live drums (crash i think is too loud so carefull...)

Ramble ramble ramble
I'll go now and put my output on ignore

Thanks and I'll upload the revised eddition soon so you can all be proud of me....hehehe
Cheers

 

[crazyjman]

I onley use delays set on ms as sends panned on one side for getting stereo (the instrument is panned to the opposite)


Would you mind elaborating on that a bit for me? I have a similar problem and this sounds pretty interesting

 

[tomica]

no problem crazyjman
you have a guitar track (in mono offcourse) on selected channel on mixer, then pan it lets say left, then you add on send channel of the guitar a delay and pan the output of a delay to the right (whell... the opposite of your instrument channel) ofcourse it would be nice to have one channel on the mixer onley for the delay output sou you can controll how much level will it give...
then you experiment with the delay time like between 10-lets say 20ms but go about 14-17ms that will create the illusion of stereo
BUT
you will need to adjust the gain on the delay channel because our brains are powerfull and you have to trick them... there's a psychoacustic effect called by some guys name(sorry cant remember) that explains how our perception or echolocation works....blablabla....our brain is detecting the sourece of the sound and neglects the echo...so even both chanell have lets sat -10db output our brain will perceeve the original sound louder so you'l have to turn up the volume on the delay chanell by 6db i think....try it out ....listen on headphones and when you can't tell where the signal is coming from you got it then....

this all comes from the fact that stereo doesn't exist in nature and what we perceeve as stereo is just different times when the signal comes to us.....

what i'm trying to say is that theres a time dillatation between the signal(audio/acustic pressure) coming to your left ear and right and our brain is equipped with echolocating algorithms (combined with our ears) so it tells us the direction where the sound is comming from (when you think about it , evolutionary, that's a great thing which saved our asses from predators).

so i lost myself for now.... i hope you got something out of this jungle of bad grammar and incoherent thouths

 

[crazyjman]

That's awesome, thanks. I'm familiar with the low gain multitrack method but it always feels like it's not "big" enough. I'll definitely give this a go
Thanks again

 

[tomica]

you're welcome crazyjman!
I'm glad I could help