quick chord question
- Thread starter Scoot82
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Light
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It is a diminished seventh chord. If the circle has a line through it, it is a half diminished chord. The diminished chord would be D F A flat B (actually a C flat, but that is enharmonic with a B). The half diminished is the same, but the seventh is a C (a flat seventh, not a diminished seventh).
The cool thing about diminished seventh chords (not the half diminished) is that they have only one type of third, a minor third. This means that the intervals between each note is a minor third, so the chord can be voiced with any note in the bass and still have the same form.
There for:
E----X----X----X----X
B----3----6----9----11
G----1----4----7----10
D----3----6----9----12
A----2----5----8----11
E----X----X----X----X
Are all the same chord, just with different voicing. They can all be called by four different names (more, actually, but we don't need to get into that here). It could be B diminished seventh, D diminished seventh, F diminished seventh, and A flat (or G sharp) diminished seventh.
So the formula for a diminished seventh (also called a full diminished) is Root, flat third, flat five, and double flatted (or diminished) seventh.
Hope that answers the question.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
The cool thing about diminished seventh chords (not the half diminished) is that they have only one type of third, a minor third. This means that the intervals between each note is a minor third, so the chord can be voiced with any note in the bass and still have the same form.
There for:
E----X----X----X----X
B----3----6----9----11
G----1----4----7----10
D----3----6----9----12
A----2----5----8----11
E----X----X----X----X
Are all the same chord, just with different voicing. They can all be called by four different names (more, actually, but we don't need to get into that here). It could be B diminished seventh, D diminished seventh, F diminished seventh, and A flat (or G sharp) diminished seventh.
So the formula for a diminished seventh (also called a full diminished) is Root, flat third, flat five, and double flatted (or diminished) seventh.
Hope that answers the question.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
foo
Active member
. . . and another cool thing about them is that if you drop any of those notes down a semi-tone (one fret) it becomes a regular dominant 7 chord with the note you just dropped down to as the root.
EG - in Light's tab diagram, using the first inversion, drop down the 2 to 1 on the A string and you have a Bb7 - the 3 to 2 on the D string and you have an E7 etc etc.
So playing a solo over these chords is as simple as playing over a dominant 7 chord - just remember you have a flat 9 in there and you'll be fine.
EG - in Light's tab diagram, using the first inversion, drop down the 2 to 1 on the A string and you have a Bb7 - the 3 to 2 on the D string and you have an E7 etc etc.
So playing a solo over these chords is as simple as playing over a dominant 7 chord - just remember you have a flat 9 in there and you'll be fine.
Clive Hugh
New member
Light,
Thanks, I have been trying to remember the half diminished for about 20 years.
Clive
Thanks, I have been trying to remember the half diminished for about 20 years.
Clive
Light
New member
foo said:
Yeah, but what is even cooler is that if you add a root note on the sixth string (or if the bass player adds the note) which is unrelated, you will usually get a preaty cool chord. For instance, if you add a B flat to the second inversion up there, you get a B flat 7 flat 9.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Scottgman
Legend in Own Mind
Does anyone else think these chords sound like ass?
Is it just me?
Ok, I've been studying harmony lately... trying to expand my knowledge of chords, progessions, etc. I recently learned the Harmonized Major scale. For those of you who don't know, it has a Dim chord as the 7th (or a half-dim, can't remember... just learned it).
Anyway, as I play those chords (either dim or half-dim), they just do not sound pleasing to my ear. I'm sure it's user difficulty.
Can someone point me to a popular song where diminshed chords are used and sound good?
Cheers!
Is it just me?
Ok, I've been studying harmony lately... trying to expand my knowledge of chords, progessions, etc. I recently learned the Harmonized Major scale. For those of you who don't know, it has a Dim chord as the 7th (or a half-dim, can't remember... just learned it).
Anyway, as I play those chords (either dim or half-dim), they just do not sound pleasing to my ear. I'm sure it's user difficulty.
Can someone point me to a popular song where diminshed chords are used and sound good?
Cheers!
AlChuck
Well-known member
It's a half-diminished -- min 7b5 -- whose root is on the seventh tone of a major scale when you build the chords out of the major scale tones, Scottgman.
They don't sound terribly pleasing standing alone by themselves; they are restless and want to go somewhere, they don't feel like an arrival point like a major or minor 7th do. They are most useful in a cadence, typically a ii-V cadence in a minor key (e.g., Bmin7b5 - E7 - Am7.) Standards and bossa novas and popular songs of all kinds are full of these chords used like this.
They don't sound terribly pleasing standing alone by themselves; they are restless and want to go somewhere, they don't feel like an arrival point like a major or minor 7th do. They are most useful in a cadence, typically a ii-V cadence in a minor key (e.g., Bmin7b5 - E7 - Am7.) Standards and bossa novas and popular songs of all kinds are full of these chords used like this.
Light
New member
Try goi8ng from the min7 flat 5 in a major key (the chord built off of the seventh), and resolving it to the one. That is it's most comfortable use. In tonal harmony, you have three basic types of chords, tonic, sub-dominant and dominant. The one, three, and six chords in a major key are all tonics, the sub-dominants are the two and four chords, and the dominants are the five and seven chords. The tonics are the ones with the most sense of resolve (particularly the one), while the sub-dominant and dominant chords are really just a way of moving away from the tonics (which is why I mostly end up writing modally, it is more interesting).
By the way, it is called the harmonic minor scale, and it is a completely artificial construct, as was the melodic minor scale. They were created to try and explain the contrapuntal harmony of Bach, and contrapuntal harmony usually places a high value on step wise movement, particularly for the inner and supporting voices. This does not mean they have not been used since then on their own merits, but I am much more interested (personally) in ignoring the constructs of classical intellectuals, and do my best to learn the lessons by analyzing Bach myself. If becomes much more interesting that way. Of course I have already spent probably fifteen years studying this stuff already.
Oh yeah, and I used to have a friend in Boston who could make that min7 flat 5 sound like a tonic. Quite amazing to be watching this little one hundred pound maybe woman play guitar, and out would come some of the most amazing atonal and microtonal polyrhythmic punk rock you ever heard. Cool Stuff.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
By the way, it is called the harmonic minor scale, and it is a completely artificial construct, as was the melodic minor scale. They were created to try and explain the contrapuntal harmony of Bach, and contrapuntal harmony usually places a high value on step wise movement, particularly for the inner and supporting voices. This does not mean they have not been used since then on their own merits, but I am much more interested (personally) in ignoring the constructs of classical intellectuals, and do my best to learn the lessons by analyzing Bach myself. If becomes much more interesting that way. Of course I have already spent probably fifteen years studying this stuff already.
Oh yeah, and I used to have a friend in Boston who could make that min7 flat 5 sound like a tonic. Quite amazing to be watching this little one hundred pound maybe woman play guitar, and out would come some of the most amazing atonal and microtonal polyrhythmic punk rock you ever heard. Cool Stuff.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
AlChuck
Well-known member
Here's an example of unusual use of the min7b5 chord from the jazz world: "Inner Urge" by Joe Henderson. It has a very neat knotty melody and the chord progression is like so:
F#m7b5 (4 bars)
Fmaj7#11 (4 bars)
Ebmaj7#11 (4 bars)
Dbmaj7#11 (4 bars)
then one bar each of
Emaj7#11
Dbmaj7#11
Dmaj7#11
Bmaj7#11
Cmaj7
Amaj7
Bb7
Gma7
The min7b5 chord sits for 4 bars and does not function as a cadence towards what would be its tonic in ordinary situations.
The form is an unusual length, too (24 bars). Looks really odd but it's a killer tune.
F#m7b5 (4 bars)
Fmaj7#11 (4 bars)
Ebmaj7#11 (4 bars)
Dbmaj7#11 (4 bars)
then one bar each of
Emaj7#11
Dbmaj7#11
Dmaj7#11
Bmaj7#11
Cmaj7
Amaj7
Bb7
Gma7
The min7b5 chord sits for 4 bars and does not function as a cadence towards what would be its tonic in ordinary situations.
The form is an unusual length, too (24 bars). Looks really odd but it's a killer tune.
Light
New member
AlChuck said:
While it is not a VII-I cadence, it is actually a pretty common resolution. Look at those roots, and look at where all of the other notes go. Nowhere. They all stay the same. Additionally, just play a C on the bass, and you have a V-I, though granted not a V7-I. Seeing as how I tend to think of sevenths as being a sort of functional tension (as opposed to being a major part of the chords function), that is a perfectly fine diatonic cadence with only minor substitutions.
And by the way, if anyone wants to disagree with me about sevenths not being functional, just show me one example, out side of a dominant chord, where the seventh makes a major change in the way the chord functions (and I would say, in dominants, it is a minor change if you are not talking about tritone substitutions).
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi