Questions about small home recording studio

  • Thread starter Thread starter jdchess
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JohnnyNowhere said:
In regard to monitors, I'd go the JBLs. You won't regret it, especially monitoring keys. Low E on a bass guitar is around 42 Hz. 5"s won't get close to that and your keys go even lower. I'd suggest 8" drivers.
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THIS IS NOT TRUE as far as the JBLs go!

The LSR2325Ps get VERY CLOSE to that with their frequency range of 43Hz - 20kHz, the 8"s only buy you another 6Hz as their range starts at 37Hz... That doesn't translate well to an additional $150 a monitor to me...

What do translate well are my mixes, to my hi-fi, car stereo, phone, and other studios. Yes I am doing hip-hop, my sub bass gets very deep... Yes there is definitely a steady drop off below 80Hz but they still put out sound down to 20Hz and below, and once you learn them (took me about a week) you will understand how to take this into account in your mixes...

When I first bought them, I was in a similar situation to you... I had the money, but really shouldn't have been spending it on them, I didn't want to go with 5"s but that is all I had the money for. I could not be happier with this purchase. Plus, for the added low end I am now adding the matching sub, which will take the low end stress off the monitors and make them sound even better...

in your case you said you are not even working on anything too bass dependent or heavy... so I believe you will be perfectly fine with 5"s. And if you ever feel you need more bass you can add the sub and upgrade your entire system for less than $400!!!

Also, since you are on a budget, if your room is yet to be treated, I highly suggest the MSC1... for $300 (less than treating your room) it will fix your monitors for your room which will buy you time until you have the budget to properly treat your room. I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS A PERFECT ALTERNATIVE TO ROOM TREATMENT, but it is less expensive in the meantime...

I am in and out of studios everyday with both the JBLs and KRKs, between the two of those MY OPINION is go with the JBLs, they are the better speaker. Can't comment on the Yamahas, haven't heard them...
 
You make a fair point with the diminishing returns for the dollar. If it hadn't been for the inclusion of keys, I'd probably not made the argument for the 8s, and indeed, if he incorporates a sub, again I'd say the 5s were sufficient. Then it gets into how low the ears go and how low the room goes, etc. I have JBL 4208s in my studio, but then, I cutoff at 40 Hz and concentrate mixing the harmonics, which I feel are more effective inasmuch as hearing the notes goes. Saves the drivers from the stress you referred to as well.
 
jdchess,

Just some thoughts and ideas based on the design and construction of four very professional studios that I have built over the years (3 big enough to take a full orchestra and one still egarded as possibly the country's best "rock" studio --- the subject of another entire communication!!!!!).

I realise that you are utalising a room that is already constructed and as such you have limitations around which you can work.

Based on your ceiling height the ultimate dimensions for a studio would be 9.87ft wide and 11.87ft long, as these dimensions would give you the least amount of standing waves (the terror of all sound recording engineers), however as your room is larger than these and for the work I am presuming that you will be undertaking, I do not consider that you will have too much trouble and definitely nothing that you can not do something about.

Ideally you should not have any parallel surfaces, as these assist with standing waves being formed.

Firstly I would be building a bass trap in each corner of the room. These can easily be built by screwing a piece of (say) 2" timber running from floor to ceiling and secured about 18" out from the corner on both walls joining the corner. Then make a timber frame (roughly) 25.5" wide and from floor to ceiling in height--- you might have to play with this size a bit to get it to sit correctly and you might want to plane the edges so that it fits snug against the walls and up against the two vertical timbers and possibly insert a couple of noggings a 1/3rd and 2/3rd the way up (Just to give it a bit of strength). I would then cover this frame with a suitable frabric (if you have an IKEA store they have some nice cheap plain fabrics at a very good price).

Now before securing the front panel to the two verticals (you can get some nice chrome mirror type screws for this), fill the void with as much fiberglass (or similar) accoustic material as possible and then to keep it all in place and not pushing against the cloth fabric, I would tack/staple some fairly ridgid cardboard to the two vertical timbers --- fridge/TV packing cases from your local electrical retailer are ideal. Now secure the cloth covered frame to the two vertical timbers.

I realise that in your room you will not be able to do the above (or not to the same dimensions) on the two back walls because of the two cupboard doors being very close to the corners, but try to put in something similar in these corners, if at all possible.

You should also put some form of bass trapping at the join of each of the walls and the ceiling. This could be someting that you make up (say a much smaller version of the vertical traps I have detailed above, or something you buy from a commercial supplier (however these are generally quite expensive).

NOW YOUR REAL PROBLEM !!!!! the two cupboards on the back wall are going to act as the most supurb bass resonators and are going to negate virtually anything you might do in the studio to reduce bass build up. These two cupboards will have to have very good sound deadening treatment on all their walls, ceiling and the rear of the door. This treatment could be fairly thick acoustic foam, acoustic fiberglass panel, caneite panel, etc glued to the walls, ceiling and door (although I would prefer that anything you put on the walls be mounted on some sort of frame that gives a small air-gap between the rear of the treatment and the cupboard wall). It would also assist if these cupboards could be filled with soft fabrics (ideal would be for these cupboards to be used as the house linen cupboard or the storage cupboard for seldom used blankets, etc) as this will greatly reduce the resonating effect of the hollow cupboards. If the cupboards could be permenantly filled with linen, then you might not need to accoustically treat their walls, ceiling and door.

As one wall (the wall that you will be facing when mixing) has a glass window (although difficult because of the three doors), I would ensure that the rear wall is basically a "dead" wall. To this effect you should try to secure some sound absorbent material to the face of the three doors and the sections between the doors.

As I mentioned at the start of this communication, ideally there should be no parallel surface in the room. This could be achieved but it would be both relatively expensive (I could describe such a system if you want to go this way) and secondly it would reduce the room size (length and width) by about 1 - 1.5ft. However you definitely require something on the walls.

I would suggest that you construct some panels/framing using 2" x 2" timber and measuring at least 10ft long x 6ft high and secure these to the side walls (leaving a gap between the edge of the corner bass traps of about 6"). These panels should be secured to the wall with the bottom of the panel just above the floor. The panels should then be filled with (say) 2" fiberglass bats and a protective coating placed over the top and secured to the front of the panel (you could use something such as 1/4" timber peg-board, multi-holed caneite pannel, even thin timber slats spaced about 1/2" apart, etc). These panels would greatly reduce the chance of any standing waves being produced between the walls. You could also do something similar under the window.

The window should be fitted with a reasonably heavy curtain (one of the rubber backed curtains you find in bedrooms would be suitable) and the curtain should have a reasonable gathering and extend past the sides and bottom of the window (to give a bit of sound proofing).

I would also suggest that the landing outside the entrance door should be treated much the same as the two cupboards so as to reduce the possibility of bass build-up and to help reduce outside noise.

If you could also place some sound absorbing treatment on the ceiling in the gereral area of the mixing desk, it will also assist with standing waves over the console.

I appreciate that all of the above will cost a bit of money, but the results would be worth it in the long run.

Now for the equipment.

Do not place your monitors within 2ft of the back wall (ie the window wall) or 3ft of the side walls as to do so could/will produce sound problems due to reflections and bass/sound build up. I would also construct/buy a couple of suitable speaker stands (make sure that they are sturdy and not likely to fall over). Now place your console so that at your sitting/mixing position you have an effectively flattened apex of an equilaterial triangle (ie turn the speakers so that you have a side to side movement at your mixing position of about 3 - 4ft without loosing high frequencies from either speaker).

I am not sure of their cost in your reigon, but I would suggest that the Behringer Truth speakers (get the active units with the ribbon drivers -- can't think of their exact part number at the moment) as they have an excellent sound over a very wide frequency range. I use these as part of the monitoring system in my own studio control room and have used them in two other studio control rooms and all sound excellent --- one studio (their control room about the same size as your room) also purchased the matching sub-speaker (no longer available unfortunately) but found that the bass from thrir Truth speakers was so go that they did not have to use the sub (they took it back and got a refund).

I would also invest in a good stereo 1/3rd octive graphic and place this between the console output and the monitor speakers inputs and I would use this to tune the room once everything is set up. Behringer make an excellent unit for this (part number something like DX2924) as well as an excellent noise measuring microphone. I will not bother at this time going into how to tune the room for your equipment, suffice to say that if you move anything in the room (especially the location of the speakers and/or mixing desk) from the tuned position, you will have to go through the entire process of re-tuning (it takes me at least an hour to do this correctly).

If you can afford to do everything I have suggested above, you should have a room that will give excellent results.

If you require any further information or clarification you could send me a PM and I will answer it, as I am not on this forum more that about once every week or so and then generally just for a brief look.

I apologise for the length of this communication and hope that it gives both you and others in your position something to work with.

David
 
CSP,
no link to you anywhere as yet I'm afraid. Which studios? Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Brisvegas or Perth (sorry tas, act & nt - & even then adelaide is a stretch in terms of nationally known)?
I'm glad you're not afraid to mention behringer - I have bits & pieces of theirs and am genreally happy with them.
I've looked, longingly at the bass traps by GIKS & Real Traps but the transport costs are prohibitive - there's a mob that imports RT's in Melbourne, I think, but they add the same cost as it would to freight personally as well as their mark up so it'd be slightly cheaper to order direct - still extremely expensive stuff downunder.
I'd love to build my own but am a total DIY dud.
 
JohnnyNowhere and fetuslasvegas,

I really appreciate your thoughts on monitor selection. Both of you guys made some excellent points.


CSP,

Thank you for the very detailed post regarding my room and treatment. I sincerely appreciate your time. I'll definitely take those ideas into consideration.
 
GIK,

I was hoping to get your opinion on something regarding the bass traps I'm building for the front two corners of the room. These will be the traps in the corners closest to the listening/mixing position. I'm planning on making them 2' wide. Should I make them floor to ceiling, and cover the entire 7' 8.5"? Any benefit to this versus 4' tall?


I also have some additional monitor questions for everyone. I've noticed that a couple of the monitors I'm looking at (JBL LSR2325P and Yamaha HS50M) have HF, LF, and MID trim switches on the back. I think I understand what these are for. They simply drop/add dB in the respective range. Correct? But are these useful at all? Is this something that I should consider when selecting a monitor?

The JBL LSR2325P has impressive specs on the low end (43Hz), but can I really expect useful, mixable response at that frequency on a 5" driver? That seems off to me considering most of the other 5" models stop around the 50Hz mark. The 43Hz spec is 1Hz lower than the listed low end spec for the KRK Rokit 8". Can this be right?

Also, anyone have any thoughts on front firing vs. back firing bass ports? Pros and cons?
 
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I noticed something interesting that I just wanted to point out. I was looking at the M-Audio website and I pulled up the closeup pics of the back of the BX5 D2 and the BX8 D2. The freq range specs for these two monitors are listed in the specification section (and on B&H Photo) as 53Hz-22kHz and 38Hz-22kHz, respectively.

However, in the closeup pics on the back of the ACTUAL CABINET itself, the frequency ranges are stated as 56Hz-22kHz for the BX5 D2 and 30Hz-24kHz for BX8 D2.

Obviously, it's interesting that the ranges are different at all, but what's even more strange is the fact that the BX5 D2 has a SMALLER range listed on the cabinet itself while the BX8 D2 has a LARGER range on the cabinet. You can see what I'm talking about by checking out the pics on the M-Audio site. Anyone else notice this? Anybody have an explanation? I intend to call M-Audio tomorrow and see what they say, but I don't honestly expect a reasonable answer.
 
Frequency range specs do not mean it sounds good at any particular frequency. It just means, or implies that it produces them.

Specs are like assh**es; everyone has them, and they mean s**t. Just my opinion. :)
 
jimmys69 said:
Frequency range specs do not mean it sounds good at any particular frequency. It just means, or implies that it produces them.

Specs are like assh**es; everyone has them, and they mean s**t. Just my opinion. :)
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I agree for sure. This is true of not just monitors, but all electronics pretty much. But don't you find it strange that the listed spec on the manufacture's website and retail sites doesn't match the range listed on the back of the cabinet itself? All the reviews list the specs from the website. I haven't seen one mention of the BX8 D2 having a range of 30Hz-24kHz, but yet there it is...on the back of the speaker itself.
 
I just got off the phone with M-Audio. Actually spoke to a really nice guy...very personable. He said that he was unaware of a discrepancy between the listed spec and the spec on the back of the cabinet itself for BX8 D2 and Bx5 D2. He actually went and grabbed a BX8 while I was on the phone with him and checked it. Sure enough, the ranges are different. He said that he would lean toward the spec listed on the speaker itself being correct, but that he would check into the reason for the discrepancy and contact me to let me know for sure. He thanked me for bringing it to their attention.

I can't believe that I'm the first one to notice this with as many of those that have been sold and as many times as they have been reviewed online. I know that specs don't mean that much in the grand scheme of things, but I thought some others might find this interesting.
 
fetuslasvegas said:
TThe LSR2325Ps get VERY CLOSE to that with their frequency range of 43Hz - 20kHz, the 8"s only buy you another 6Hz as their range starts at 37Hz... That doesn't translate well to an additional $150 a monitor to me...
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Though it might not seem like a lot to you, 6 Hz when you're talking the difference between 37 and 43 Hz is a substantial amount of information. IMO, I like smaller two ways and would rather not have an 8" driver if possible anyways, but I've had monitors that roll off at 48, monitors that roll off at 42, and now monitors that roll off at 37 and they each gave me a lot more low end information as the drivers got larger. I'm not saying 6 Hz should be worth $150 to everyone, but to a lot of people, it is easily a $150 difference.
 
rayc said:
I've looked, longingly at the bass traps by GIKS & Real Traps but the transport costs are prohibitive - there's a mob that imports RT's in Melbourne, I think, but they add the same cost as it would to freight personally as well as their mark up so it'd be slightly cheaper to order direct - still extremely expensive stuff downunder.
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We are continually looking for ways to get stuff to AUS for a reasonable cost as shipping is seriously insane. We get e-mails often from those in Aus that are in dire need for a good product, but it is just simply so cost prohibitive for most to ship (and we understand). When we do figure something out for our prospective customers in Aus it will be BIG news.
 
GIK Acoustics said:
Though it might not seem like a lot to you, 6 Hz when you're talking the difference between 37 and 43 Hz is a substantial amount of information. IMO, I like smaller two ways and would rather not have an 8" driver if possible anyways, but I've had monitors that roll off at 48, monitors that roll off at 42, and now monitors that roll off at 37 and they each gave me a lot more low end information as the drivers got larger. I'm not saying 6 Hz should be worth $150 to everyone, but to a lot of people, it is easily a $150 difference.
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You said that you would rather not have an 8" driver if possible. I was curious as to your reasons for this. So your preference for smaller room would be for a 5" or 6" 2-way with a sub versus an 8" driver without a sub?

Also, in building my corner bass traps for the corners closest to the mix/listening position...should I make those floor to ceiling and cover the entire 92.5" vs making them 48" tall? Major benefit or no?
 
jdchess said:
GIK,

I was hoping to get your opinion on something regarding the bass traps I'm building for the front two corners of the room. These will be the traps in the corners closest to the listening/mixing position. I'm planning on making them 2' wide. Should I make them floor to ceiling, and cover the entire 7' 8.5"? Any benefit to this versus 4' tall?
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Yes you should! Of course there's a benefit - there is twice as much trapping!! We always recommend going floor to ceiling if the budget is there.

You also get some additional benefits as you're covering two tri-corners as well (where all three boundaries meet)

jdchess said:
I also have some additional monitor questions for everyone. I've noticed that a couple of the monitors I'm looking at (JBL LSR2325P and Yamaha HS50M) have HF, LF, and MID trim switches on the back. I think I understand what these are for. They simply drop/add dB in the respective range. Correct? But are these useful at all? Is this something that I should consider when selecting a monitor?
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These switches can be handy, but are mistakenly noted as "room corrections" on some monitors. Turning the entire high frequency shelf down 1dB might slightly help mix decisions, but doesn't correct the problems of harmful reflections and flutter echo. Likewise, turning up the low end doesn't make up for modal nulls and the like. I DO like them though, as some people have different ears and we may make better mix decisions with one of the switches flipped. Whenever I get new monitors, I normally try multiple different mixes on them with high shelf at +1, 0 and -1 and see which mix translates the best on the high end. I've never had a need to use the low frequency switches (these seem more problematic than helpful IMO)

jdchess said:
The JBL LSR2325P has impressive specs on the low end (43Hz), but can I really expect useful, mixable response at that frequency on a 5" driver? That seems off to me considering most of the other 5" models stop around the 50Hz mark. The 43Hz spec is 1Hz lower than the listed low end spec for the KRK Rokit 8". Can this be right?
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It can be right, but note the dB range that is specified. Most manufactures will list -3dB @ whatever Hz, but some list -6dB @ whatever Hz instead and can give a confusing difference. However, some monitors can have a lot more throw than others depending on crossovers, what the drivers are made out of, how powerful the magnet is, etc. You can theoretically have a 1" driver that produces 10 Hz, it would just need to move impossible amounts back and forth.

jdchess said:
Also, anyone have any thoughts on front firing vs. back firing bass ports? Pros and cons?
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Most people have a negative opinion towards rear firing port holes for some reason. People say it has a more negative impact on bass frequencies in room acoustics, but really, bass frequencies are omnidirectional and would cause problems regardless of which direction the port hole was (or if there even was a port hole).

Others dislike front firing ports because of port noise. This noise is just simply a lot of air trying to get in/out of the port hole. It does not change your heard response by much at all, BUT the port noise can be annoying to some people. So, some people don't like front ports and prefer rear ports as it masks the port noise.

My monitors are rear ported and are great, even though most people's attitude are that they are "surprised" that Event would put a rear port on the speakers since its "so bad for acoustics". If you're concerned about it, put an absorber behind the speaker. Voilà!

jdchess said:
I noticed something interesting that I just wanted to point out. I was looking at the M-Audio website and I pulled up the closeup pics of the back of the BX5 D2 and the BX8 D2. The freq range specs for these two monitors are listed in the specification section (and on B&H Photo) as 53Hz-22kHz and 38Hz-22kHz, respectively.

However, in the closeup pics on the back of the ACTUAL CABINET itself, the frequency ranges are stated as 56Hz-22kHz for the BX5 D2 and 30Hz-24kHz for BX8 D2.

Obviously, it's interesting that the ranges are different at all, but what's even more strange is the fact that the BX5 D2 has a SMALLER range listed on the cabinet itself while the BX8 D2 has a LARGER range on the cabinet. You can see what I'm talking about by checking out the pics on the M-Audio site. Anyone else notice this? Anybody have an explanation? I intend to call M-Audio tomorrow and see what they say, but I don't honestly expect a reasonable answer.
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This is interesting. It might be a difference between the design approximation and real world results, or it could be listed at different specs (like the -3dB @ #Hz like suggested earlier on the speaker vs -6dB in the manual) - however, it could also be an error.
 
Just curious, came in late so I may have missed some of this, But are these 'specs having any ref. to the -dB down points? -- or the levels you need? It seems fairly I don't know, odd to be focusing too much on various 5" low range differences (vs larger choices.. etc) The question is usable relatively accurate response. 1" drivers do 30-40Hz fine -at 1/2" away in head phones. :D
 
jdchess said:
You said that you would rather not have an 8" driver if possible. I was curious as to your reasons for this. So your preference for smaller room would be for a 5" or 6" 2-way with a sub versus an 8" driver without a sub?
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It has nothing to do with the size of the room, but in that an 8" driver that needs to produce subs, lows, and mids correctly and (usually) has a hard time doing so. Most speakers with an 8" driver seem to exhibit scooped mids. Of course, not all do, but I just hear clearer mids with a 3-5" driver. I don't really love the ideas of subs in a studio either, but I've heard good results when used carefully. My top choice is a three way monitor, as I like having a low driver crossed over around 300-500 Hz as opposed to a sub crossed over at 60-80 Hz.
 
mixsit said:
Just curious, came in late so I may have missed some of this, But are these 'specs having any ref. to the -dB down points? -- or the levels you need? It seems fairly I don't know, odd to be focusing too much on various 5" low range differences (vs larger choices.. etc)
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Yes - this is what I was trying to say in my other post. 37 Hz doesn't mean anything if you don't know what dB deviation that is from "flat".
 
Guys,

Be a bit carefull when you are talking asbout the specifications/frequency response for the various loudspeakers you are all considering.

I have just had a look at the M-audio web site and the specs for the BX8 D2 speaker and in WRITING they say 30Hz-22kHz BUT there is no frequency response graph to indicate how flat the speaker's response actually is. Sure the speakers might go down to 30Hz and they might go up to 22KHz, but you will find that if you looked at a real frequency response for the speakers that they are quite possibly reasonably flat (say) between 800Hz and 12KHz, but I will almost guarantee that they are something like 20db+ down at both of the extreme frequencies. In other words, I would suggest that the speakers (or any other brand that has a small speaker size for the lows) will be almost useless at those frequencies.

Bass is produced by a combination of a lot of cardboard that can move a lot of air and for that cardboard to be sitting in a large box that can take that large volume of air. This is the reason that in a live theatre that I am involved with, we have a central cluster that has an excellent frequency response, but to deliver the required amount of releastic low frequency, we have two sub speaker boxes each with two 18" speakers, the boxes being about 5ft high x 3ft wide and 3ft deep and each box being driven by a 7000w RMS amplifier.

In my own set-up, I use as my near-field monitors the Behringer Truth speakers which are advertised as having a good low frequency (can't reall at the moment the exact frequency) but when we carried out a full 1/3rd octave freqency response test, we discovered that we would have to add a dedicated sub speaker to give us a FLAT response down to what we required (about 35Hz).

So before you buy any speakers, check with the manufacturer/retailer if there is a published frequency response curve for the particular speakers, if there is not, or one is not available to you, then the published frequency response is MOST unlikely to be usefull at the extreme frequencies.

Rayc,

Not sure what you mean by "no link to you anywhere as yet" --- I generally do not try to promote myself, I much prefer to be able to use my broad electronis, engineering, recording and musical knowledge to help others (eg the members of this forum). I have been involved professionally with the sound recording/live FOH sound since about 1959 and am still fully involved with it.

The various studios, etc that I was referring to, are/were located in Sydney (Hurstville, Surry Hills, CBD) and more recently in Qld (Brisbane -- a live theatre and a small studio, the Gold Coast (a live theatre, two studios, at least one school) and consultant to a couple of others and lots of advice to a number of people/organistaions/friends who have designed their own small studios and who have asked for some help/advice.

David
 
GIK Acoustics said:
Yes - this is what I was trying to say in my other post. 37 Hz doesn't mean anything if you don't know what dB deviation that is from "flat".
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The JBL LSR2325Ps are flat from 80Hz-20kHz, they take a 6dB hit @ 50Hz, and a 15dB hit from that between 20Hz and 50Hz with a steady decline... They are putting out 30Hz @ a 16dB hit, not too shabby for a 5" woofer, I can't say for sure, but I'm willing to bet those are some of the best specs, if not the best on the market...

But let's kick brass tacks here: a flat response from 80Hz-20kHz is fucking rad from a 5" woofer, especially if you are working with DEEP bass you shouldn't even be putting that low of a frequency through these monitors to begin with, get a sub...



Sorry Charlie Murphy, I was having too much fun... they take a 3dB hit @ 20kHz, they are flat from 80Hz - 10kHz, still won't get any complaints from me...!!!
 
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