questions about consoles

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the_man

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Why?

Reading "The Rack" forum and other recording websites and magazines, there's a lot of emphasis on all the different types of mic preamps pro studios have. I guess the point is that you need many different kinds of preamps to get all kinds of different sounds and to accomodate all kinds of different singers and instruments.

So why do consoles have mic preamps? I would imagine most people would use their "specialized" pres and use the EQ and compression facilities of the console strips, but then one could just get specialized EQ and compression also. Why is it useful to have a console during tracking?

Would it be more expensive to piece together 24 channels or so out of assorted outboard gear? Its not like recoding consoles are cheap.

I guess if you're recording onto analog tape or just unhappy with the mixer in your DAW, it'd be helpful to have one for mixing, but then you're spending a lot for pre's, eq's and the like that you're not using.

Just wondering.
 
In pro studios were they can afford a large assort of quality pre's,
you will see that many bypass the pre's on the console.
for the need of various dimensions and pre's that match your needs per instrument and vocals.

Many people can't afford or don't have a console alike SSL (if you like their pre's....) or a quad 8 or Neve. In mid budget console, the pre's (as the EQ) can be a compromise between sound quality and being able to build for the public a console that is afforable !.

To build a console out of quality pre's and parts or as u write seperated 24 channals is far from cheap !.

Yet....the best way to work and organize your tracks and be able to mix in comfort and see the whole picture would be to route through a mixer were with out moving from your chair you can still move faders comfortably. But like I said, most pro studios will bypass some if not all the pres and many will not even touch the EQ.

Some are starting to think that analog mixers are starting to be a thing of the past. NOT just yet... but there does seem to be a certain incliment towards that. A summing mixer might be the new trend for digital and remember may studios invest a fortune in buying a mixer and can't afford an assortment of pre's costing $2000 each, and can still get great use out of it's pre's and all
 
A half decent midrange 24ch console costs less than 4 ch of high quality preamps. You do the math.
 
you can buy a mackie 32 channel recording desk with 32 pres and 32 eq's for around $1,100 on ebay.
i paid $2,000 for 2 mic pres with no eq. the stand alone high qualiy pres are FAR MORE EXPENSIVE.
 
TexRoadkill said:
A half decent midrange 24ch console costs less than 4 ch of high quality preamps. You do the math.
Click to expand...

Define your terms a little better; I'd love to do the math.

What are some "half-decent midrange consoles"? Soundcraft? Yamaha? Mackie? Daking?

Second, what are some "high quality preamps"? Great River and John Hardy are spoken of very highly around here.

Some math: Merc. Audio has four channels of the John Hardy M-1 for $2750, or $687 per channel. Do "half-decent midrange consoles" exist for, say, $2750? That's an honest question, BTW; maybe they do. Because for 24 channels, your preamps cost roughly 2750 / 24 = $114 per channel, or only a little bit more than the cost of a PreSonus TubePre, and that's before you factor in the cost of the channel strip's EQ and compression (if any). Why would any studio pay for 24 PreSonus TubePres?

Secondly, I'm under the impression that most big-time studios have gigantic equpiment budgets. They could afford a bajillion channels of Manley, Avalon, whatever, but they all still have consoles? Why?



Re-reading this, I didn't mean to take such a confrontational tone. But I'm way too lazy to re-type it. Just trying to understand; this is the newbie section, after all!
 
maskedman72 said:
you can buy a mackie 32 channel recording desk with 32 pres and 32 eq's for around $1,100 on ebay.
i paid $2,000 for 2 mic pres with no eq. the stand alone high qualiy pres are FAR MORE EXPENSIVE.
Click to expand...

Are you comparing new pres to a used console, or am I misunderstanding?

Besides, but its not just about getting tons of pres, is it? We want *quality* pres.

And I suppose it comes down to what you're recording to a large extent too, right? I don't know what you're recording at you're place, but I'm not looking to be a pro. I'll be recording my band and a few of my friend's bands, and just demo stuff mostly. Stylistically, it would range from HC punk to lo-fi indiepop. I could record three bands and never use 32 channels total, and probably never more than 12 at a time!

Would it be better for me to accumulate 8, 12, or maybe 16 channels of separate pres over time rather than spend for a bunch of lower quality pres that I will never use?

Or would the quality of separate pres be wasted on HC punk and lo-fi Indiepop?

Thanks, guys.
 
For me a mid budget console would start around $20,000-$60,000. At least these are the prices we pay here. For a Amek you would pay around $120,000 depending on the model.

You are asking about pro consoles. Although a Ghost would be considered a nice console by many, in a major studio you won't find such a console. I'm not giving an opinion but the facts. A mackie consol is considered nothing more then a toy for a pro runed studio.

Remember you need to monitor and sum and work the tracks and send feeds to phones and talk back and more !!. This can be done with comfort through a mixer. The mixer is the heart of the studio. Don't forget the rest of the components on the mixer aside from pre's and EQ's. Motorized faders is just one but important aspect.

Most pro studios I know first buy the mixer and then build up during the years on really special gear. You can't start to work with an assorted spread around pre's and EQ's all over the room and start a studio with clients. It's the combination that will bring the sound of your studio that magic that other clients look for.
If you can come up with a more comfortable way to work with efficiency then by all means speak up.
 
Your numbers are very accurate but you keep mixing in 'big budget' studios with project studios. A big budget studio has a big API, Neve or Trident board and every preamp on it is of high quality. Plus they get different pres for different situations.

A project studio will use a board like a Soundcraft Ghost, Mackie 8 Buss, Soundtracs Topaz etc and hopefully have a few channels of 'gold channel' pres. The pres on those boards may be of comparable quality to $200-300 stand alone pres but at a lower per channel cost and with 10x the utitlity (busses, aux sends, EQ etc.)

The end result is the same no matter what the budget. 24+ CH of B grade pres for utility use and extra channels for higher/different quality.

A big part of using consoles is their utility. You simply cannot work as fast and with as much flexibility with a rack of pres as you can with a full console. If a studio is actually mixing their music on a console than obviously you have to have the console. A studio also has to be ready for different types of tracking situations whereas a home recorder only has to worry about what works for them.

Some studios don't need a console. Some do.

Regarding new vs used- Console prices tend to drop a lot with age. Stand alone pres don't.
 
the_man said:
Are you comparing new pres to a used console, or am I misunderstanding?

Besides, but its not just about getting tons of pres, is it? We want *quality* pres.

And I suppose it comes down to what you're recording to a large extent too, right? I don't know what you're recording at you're place, but I'm not looking to be a pro. I'll be recording my band and a few of my friend's bands, and just demo stuff mostly. Stylistically, it would range from HC punk to lo-fi indiepop. I could record three bands and never use 32 channels total, and probably never more than 12 at a time!

Would it be better for me to accumulate 8, 12, or maybe 16 channels of separate pres over time rather than spend for a bunch of lower quality pres that I will never use?

Or would the quality of separate pres be wasted on HC punk and lo-fi Indiepop?

Thanks, guys.
Click to expand...

In your situation I would definatley get a console. Tracking a full band with just pres is a pain in the ass. Then as you can afford it add some more pres for different colors/quality.
 
Very helpful discussion. Thanks, guys. I was bouncing around from pro to project studio, and that might have clouded things somewhat.

Now Tex, go back to the n-track forum and answer my question!
 
Oh yeah; what are some consoles, or at least console brands, that I should be looking at? I know about the Soundcraft Ghost and the Mackie 8-buss stuff. What about the Mackie 1604? I thought I read somewhere that most of the Death Cab for Cutie stuff is recorded on those. What else should I be looking at?
 
Outboard pre's became popular when Console EQ's and Pre's began to suck. Like it was noted....the Pre's began to suck because console were too expensive so there was a cutback to save some dough. The unfortunate thing is really good console are still expensive and hte price a really good pre's are still expensive if you want more than a few flavors. More pre's IMO means your don't get that glaze on every tracks, you can mix and match pre's etc to maximize the strong points of your gear.

As far as consoles.... it depends on what you like. I don't like Mackie Pre's, I like the Ghosts pre's and API's. There are older Tascam mixers and older fostex mixers that might suit you better.


SoMm
 
Shailat has offered, as always, VERY wise words to consider!

I do not think the pre's on something like a Soundcraft Ghost will be the cause of a "cheap sound". You could do VERY WELL just using those pre's on a full production. I will not say that they are on par with better pre's, but I will not say that for doing budget recordings for bands that they are a detriment either.

Here is something that was tracked live via Mackie preamps to ADAT:



I couldnt' even listen to the tracks and adjust mic placement because there was no sound check with the band. I threw mic in front of things, set some levels and hit record. Mixed later on a Soundcraft Ghost console. Not too shabby really. I have heard FAR worse sounding big label released live recordings than this!

The console truely IS the heart of your studio. If you are going to track bands, and need to track more than one person at a time, you NEED flexibility. Bands working on a small budget will appreciate your facilities flexibilty long before the upgrade to all $1000 per channel preamps. 24 channels of $1000 per channel preamps will set you back $24,000 JUST for preamps, and you will still need a mixer to provide headphone mixes to the client. Your per hour costs will need to reflect this kind of quality in the signal path, and the client will be able to afford far less hours to record. Most small budget recordings gain a better sound by spending more time tracking/mixing than having mic pre's that are "da bomb". You will actually find too little difference between say a API pre and a Soundcraft Ghost pre in a budget studio tracking room that probably has too low ceilings and other bad acoustic features! You will be asking yourself, "what is the big deal about this $1000 per channel pre?" in a situation like this. Also, if you don't have all the time in the world to switch out mics, try various mic placements, etc....you will seldom realise the difference again, unless you just happen to get lucky.

It is all relative. I personally would love to have a great room, dozens upon dozen of mics, and racks full of classA pre's, and bands that can afford to spend a LOT of time at $100 per hour to record a CD. That is far from reality for small time bands, and that is far from reality for the type of facility you can offer to a small time band that is looking to record something in the $20-$40 an hour range. The difference between a decent console pre and a classA pre in this case isn't going to be enough to justify the expense to you that you will probably never get back.

I would purchase a Ghost console and start there. Maybe even a 2 channel classA pre for like vocal overdubs, etc....Learn how to do good production on that type of setup and make a lot of money because you can, and slowly start investing in better front end gear for your recordings, or save up and invest in even a better console! You at the same time will need to improve your tracking room and control room acoustics. Etc.....

Once you start booking 40+ hours a week in your facility, and the type of clients you are working with DEMAND higher end gear, you can justify the costs of it because those type of clients will PAY for that type of gear. Small time bands WON'T pay $60-100 an hour to record demo's, no matter how good your signal path is.

Good luck.

Ed
 
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