Question regarding mixing for a fee...

O

oregon.caller

New member
Good morning,

I am seeking an answer to a question. I have contacted BMI, ASCAP, and the organization through which I purchase my BMI/ASCAP license repeatedly, but have not recieved a response. I am hoping someone here can provide an answer or direct me to a responsive source to ask the question...

I do have a BMI/ASCAP license for using music within my industry (dance and choreography).

My understanding is that the sequence I play the music in is irrelevent. In other words, I can play all but the last 15 seconds of a piece, then jump back to 15 seconds after the piece starts, in a repeated pattern in order to extend the music playtime during use. This is akin to quickly picking up and repositioning the needle on a record prior to completion of a song. Based on this, to do so digitally through cut and paste of the file and saving this variation, is not any different. By so doing, I don't have to push a button during playtime of the music, but could just play a CD or computer file of that mix. I would presume this is also fine as long I own the original music piece. This is universally done in my industry under the existing BMI/ASCAP license.

My question is a derivative of the above. If I desire to do as listed above, and I do not have the computer skills to adequately make that mix myself, can I pay an individual to provide me the service of cutting and pasting that music for me? Presuming again, of course, that I already own the original piece of music.

Please let me know,
Thank you
 
First, you are referring to a couple different things in your post. At times you mention licensing and other times owning the music. Those are two different things. Obviously, if you own the music, as in wrote it yourself or bought the music outright (not just licensing it) then you can do whatever the heck you want to with it.

As far as the audio editing, if that is legal without the copyright owners' consent, then I personally don't see the issue whether you do it yourself or hire someone to do it for you. That seems like a complete none issue, but I'm not a lawyer and mine is an uninformed opinion!

If the audio editor were to use those edits for one of his own projects, then that would not be allowed. But to make the edits for you, I believe that is legit.
 
By owning the music, I am referring to purchasing a copy. For example, I purchased a karaoke version of Only in America - the original by Brooks and Dunn. I then cut and past segments to make it smoothly flow for 448 beats at 128 bpm. I purchased a copy. As I indicated, it is no different than lifting a needle off a record and quickly repositioning it, or inserting trackbreaks on a CD and programming the tracks on the CD player. This has been done for well over 50 years in my industry. Only in the last 5 to 10 have they started leveraging computers as well.

I have, incidentally, left a similar message with a lawyer yet recieved no response. That is why I am hoping someone on here can help or direct me to a reliable source for the answer.
 
You mean you bought the CD, or bought a download?

If so, you have not purchased the license to use the music in your production. You've simply bought a copy to listen to.

I think you are correct to ask an attorney about these questions, but you should seek out a copyright attorney. There are many different types of law practices, and an attorney who's specialty is not copyright might not really know the answer.
 
That is what my BMI/ASCAP license is for. It allows me to use the music. If I were to mix it and sell the mix I would need to also get a mechanical license. My question arises about providing the service of mixing it to someone who already has a copy of the music and has their BMI/ASCAP license for the performance.

The attorney I posted the question to is a copyright attorney. As they have not responded, I am hoping for a reference to somebody who can address this promptly as I have been trying to get a clear and concise answer for over 6 months and not had an authoritative response yet.
 
oregon.caller said:
That is what my BMI/ASCAP license is for. It allows me to use the music. If I were to mix it and sell the mix I would need to also get a mechanical license. My question arises about providing the service of mixing it to someone who already has a copy of the music and has their BMI/ASCAP license for the performance.

The attorney I posted the question to is a copyright attorney. As they have not responded, I am hoping for a reference to somebody who can address this promptly as I have been trying to get a clear and concise answer for over 6 months and not had an authoritative response yet.
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Very confusing :confused: :confused: :confused:
 
Do you really think anybody cares if it's you physically doing the looping or if you ask your Uncle Horace to do it for you or if you ask a studio to do it for you? If it's legal for you to do, it's legal for someone in your employ to do if they are doing it at your behest or as your proxy.

It's no different than the singers and dancers you have doing the performance for you. They don't need a license, you do (and frankly, I'm not even sure you do unless you run the venue at which the performance is being held). A band that plays as a club does not need a performance license, the club does. No different here; the engineer in your employ - the one actually executing the performance - does not need the license, they are working for you, and you hold the license.

G.
 
What license at BMI/ASCAP are you talking about? I'm curious about that. If you can provide a link I'd like to read up on it, as I'm not 100% sure what you are referring to.
 
BMI/ASCAP License

The license I have was acquired through an organization called 'Callerlab'. I have requested the details of the license but they have not responded.

The license is certified by a plastic card with both BMI and ASCAP logos on it which states "The bearer of this card is licensed by ASCAP and BMI to perform copyrighted music in accordance with the CALLERLAB agreement. Expires March 31, 2008."

It is then signed by the contractual parties, and has a line for me to provide my signature. If I had a clear copy of the contract I could likely finish the research on my own but I am still trying to find it. That's why I was hoping I could find someone else to assist with BMI/ASCAP details.
 
Is this a "mixing" license, or a "mastering" license? :confused:




No, seriously...I understand mechanical licensing and I have a law degree and I still have no idea what you're talking about. The only BMI and ASCAP one year licenses that I've ever heard of are licenses that allow club owners to have a jukebox and coverbands.
 
license type

The license is neither. The documentation provided to me when I registered for the license states...

The BMI/ASCAP music license allows you to use copyrighted music to conduct/teach square dances, round dances, line dances, contra, clogging, or traditional dances.

As previously indicated it has been a practice for decades, to play the music in whatever sequence was most conducive to the needs of the event. I have been advised by both national and international leaders in my field that this is perfectly legal.

My quandary comes into play on paying somebody to do the cut and paste piece for me. Is it legal to pay somebody to do the cut and paste work for me to use under my BMI/ASCAP license provided I have purchased the music I am going to use?

I do not want to get myself or anyone else into hot water, but I do want to leverage the ability to do this.

Any information is greatly appreciated
 
oregon.caller said:
My quandary comes into play on paying somebody to do the cut and paste piece for me. Is it legal to pay somebody to do the cut and paste work for me to use under my BMI/ASCAP license provided I have purchased the music I am going to use?
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I repeat my previous post, if it's legal for you to do it yourself, it's legal for you to hire someone to do it for you. The only way that would be illegal is if they used copies of the product for something other than giving back to you for your use.

I still don't think you even need that "license" that you have; as long as the venue in which you perform your dances has their performance license, you should be covered. And, as far as I know, you can practice to anything you want; you should't need a license for playing material during the practicing of a performance. It's only public performance that anybody gives a rat's ass about.

G.
 
In square dance, that's the performance. I think he does need the license, and I think it's admirable that oregon.caller is going to such trouble to do things the right way.

As far as hiring someone to do your editing for you, I don't see how that is illegal. As long as the audio editor doesn't use the edited or unedited songs for his or her own use. In other words, you are still the only one with the license to use the music, not your audio editor.

As far as square dance, I grew up in Iowa and we had square dance in gym class sometimes. It's great physical exercise and training, and is also a very social experience. I always enjoyed it.
 
SonicAlbert said:
In square dance, that's the performance. I think he does need the license, and I think it's admirable that oregon.caller is going to such trouble to do things the right way.
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I agree in that I have no problem with someone wanting to legally dot their Is and cross their Ts.

I'm just relating a dance performance to a musical performance. When a band performs covers, they don't need a license to perform; the Performance License is instead required by the venue in which the performance is held. It's the same way with karaoke performances; the karaoke DJ does not need the license to play/perform the music (to be sure, there are licensing fees automatically folded into the cost of the karaoke music he has purchased), but the venue does have to include karoke performance usage in their performance license fee structure. It seems to me that the same thing would apply to music and dance used in a dance performance. The dance troup (which would include the choreographer/producer) are the performers, just like the band or the DJ would be; the performance license held by the venue should, I would think, cover that.

Similarly, I have never heard of licensing being required by performers or even venues for practice sessions. I don't know why it would be different for dance troups.

G.
 
Whenever choreographers have used my music in their performances they have always asked my permission in advance. The venue never asks or is involved, it's always the choreographer or producer. Why would the venue have to secure permission when the choreographer already has it?

With touring shows the production company/performer has to secure the rights. I believe the venue can be sued if the artist performs there without having secured licensing or ownership rights to the music, but the venue itself doesn't secure the rights directly from the copyright holder.

You can see why that would be the case. Why should a theater/venue have to secure the rights for every show that comes through town? Many venues have multiple shows per week. They'd need a staff just for securing rights, and every venue in the country would have to duplicate that in their own staff.

So in my opinion, oregon.caller is doing this the right way, and certainly does need to have secured those rights, or have that license. The places he performs do not. Since he has bought the license he has paid for the right to use those tunes.

And again, I don't see those square dances as practice. The folks are paying their money to square dance. The square dance is the thing, it *is* the performance.
 
SonicAlbert said:
You can see why that would be the case. Why should a theater/venue have to secure the rights for every show that comes through town? Many venues have multiple shows per week. They'd need a staff just for securing rights, and every venue in the country would have to duplicate that in their own staff.
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I can only speak to the standard ASCAP Performance License, which is required by the venue and not the artists.

They basically fill out a (usually) yearly form that looks not unlike an IRS tax form in that it has line items which need to be filled out in order to calculate the cost of the license for that venue. The line items include such things as how many songs or how many hours per week or year do you expect to be performed by live performers in your location, will you have karaoke performances as well, and if so how many per week, and how about juke box usage, etc. The fee for the yearly license is then calculated purely on a best estimate of the quantity of each music type to be performed there within the license period and set rates for each type of performance. Nowhere in the license application form is there any need to itemize the actual songs or original artists which will be played or performed. It's not like every time our band performs "What's Up" that we or the place in which we are playing needs to get permission from Four Non Blondes to perform it. And technically, if we were to perform one of your pieces at our gig at Mullen's tonight (cheap plug! :D), neither we or Mullen's would need to contact you for permission as long as Mullen's has their performance license.

Theatrical productions of copyrighted plays and musicals are a different animal; there, yes, the production company does have to secure the rights to perform that particular play. Even school plays need to do that.

G.
 
read a book

oregon.caller said:
The license I have was acquired through an organization called 'Callerlab'. I have requested the details of the license but they have not responded.

The license is certified by a plastic card with both BMI and ASCAP logos on it which states "The bearer of this card is licensed by ASCAP and BMI to perform copyrighted music in accordance with the CALLERLAB agreement. Expires March 31, 2008."

It is then signed by the contractual parties, and has a line for me to provide my signature. If I had a clear copy of the contract I could likely finish the research on my own but I am still trying to find it. That's why I was hoping I could find someone else to assist with BMI/ASCAP details.
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there are good books on copyright
read them

there are lawyer based IP websites
check them out

from what you said
which may or may not be accurate and correct
you do NOT have the rights you need to do that
and that is my amateur opinion not a legal one that you should rely on. but i did teach copyright as part of my classes and i have read the books on it.

that said, the law is an *** and any judge may decide anything at any time no matter how ridiculous.
 
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