Question on Converters and Clock

[thegatekeeper]

Hey everyone, haven't posted here in a while. Here the deal, I'm trying to do a project with my local church trying to record a live cd. For the past 2 years we have been upgrading equipment, from new instruments to new mics, new mixer etc etc. So now here's the thing. We already have all live sound side to it, but we need the recording equipment. We're going to be using approx. 26-32 tracks for the event. So for my converters I was wondering if I could daisy chain 2 apogee 16x. and connect it to the pc via firewire. I've also been hearing from alot of people that I'm going to need a word clock, and I wanted to know where in the signal chain would I connect the word clock. Any comments would be greatly appreciated

 

[SonicAlbert]

I believe those Apogee units already have their best word clock in them. So you would need to clock one 16x off the other, and make sure that they are the master clock for the rest of your system.

 

[mshilarious]

I might be a Luddite, but 32 tracks live to a PC scares me. I'd feel safer with a pair of HD24XRs.

 

[thegatekeeper]

how would I connect the apogee's together, sorry about these stupid questions but I'm new to the word clock concept. If I go via the alesis route would I then need a clock? and I do how would I connect them together. Thanks again guys for the quick replys

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I might be a Luddite, but 32 tracks live to a PC scares me. I'd feel safer with a pair of HD24XRs.

You're only a Luddite if you plant a bomb or two on this forum and then renounce engineering altogether

I agree; unless one is using a big iron PC with striped arrays or something like that, it's kind of a highwire act with no net going straight to a pc with that high of a load for anything more than maybe a 20 minutes at a time. It could go just fine, but one slip and it could be a long fall.

G.

 

[noisewreck]

how would I connect the apogee's together, sorry about these stupid questions but I'm new to the word clock concept. If I go via the alesis route would I then need a clock? and I do how would I connect them together. Thanks again guys for the quick replys

Look at this picture of the rear panel of the 16x:
http://www.apogeedigital.com/images/ad16x_rp_lg.jpg

The two round connectors on the right (BNC connectors) are for Word Clock in/out. It's separate from audio I/O.

I second the opinions of the others that running that many tracks simultaneosly during recording might not be a good idea. If you decide to do that, I'd recommend that you also have a secondary backup running at the same time on another platform such as a standalone HD recorder, or even some ADATs if you have access.

 

[thegatekeeper]

I've read on a lot of posts that if were to daisy chain the word clock then somehow it would be bad or not work as good or something. Don't know exaclty what but I read by anumber of people that daisy chaining the word clock would cause something bad, any input?

 

[NL5]

I might be a Luddite, but 32 tracks live to a PC scares me. I'd feel safer with a pair of HD24XRs.

C'mon ya old fart - 32 tracks is nothin for a semi modern PC..........

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

C'mon ya old fart - 32 tracks is nothin for a semi modern PC..........

There's a lot more to it than clock and bus speed.

The basic archecture and technology of PCs and PC storage hasn't changed in 20 years. And that architecture just isn't trustworthy enough - IMHO and many others - with that many simultaneous threads unless one has some kind of real-time data safeguarding and/or redundancy in place. Not for a live one-shot-only event.

I'm not guaranteeing failure. I'm just saying that it's pushing one's luck. It just like the Challenger shuttle situation; the fact that the O-Rings didn't burn though all the way on the last launch is not evidence that they are safe on this launch.

G.

 

[SonicAlbert]

I've read on a lot of posts that if were to daisy chain the word clock then somehow it would be bad or not work as good or something. Don't know exaclty what but I read by anumber of people that daisy chaining the word clock would cause something bad, any input?

This is simply wrong information that is being perpetuated over the internet.

Daisy chaining word clock devices works great, there will be no problems if done correctly. I have several word clock chains going in my studio, two of them have six devices in the chain, and it works fine. There are those that argue that using chains actually is better than word clock distribution boxes.

The key is to understand that each piece of gear that accepts WC will need to either be terminated or not terminated, depending on it's position in the chain. So for example, if you have two 16X converter units and the second one is the end of the chain, it will need to be terminated. The last device in the chain is the one that needs to be terminated, while those in the middle of the chain are not terminated.

As you can see in the photo that noisewreck linked to, Apogee has conveniently provided a termination switch on the rear of the 16X.

Properly set up, word clock chains work great and can save you a lot of money because you don't need to buy distribution boxes. There is a lot of confusion about this subject, but I can tell you for sure that WC chains are an effective and inexpensive way to link multiple devices that need to clock off one WC signal.

There is no delay from the beginning ot the end of the WC chain, like there is with midi for example. It's a completely different protocol and signal. I think this is part of where the confusion comes from because with midi, chaining really is a bad idea, certainly when chaining more than three midi devices. WC chaining does not have these limitations.

Apogee provides WC termination switches on the back of their gear for the express purpose of chaining them. Whoever is saying that chaining WC devices is bad or will not work properly is simply wrong. The chain has to be set up properly of course, but once it is it will work great.

The 16X's already have Apogee's best WC in them, so buying a WC generator to use with them is a total waste of money and completely unnecessary. I don't know how much more strongly I can say this to you.

 

[thegatekeeper]

so basically the only thing I should get then is the apogee's and that's it, granted I alread have a setup for a live event meaning analog mixer, mics. Any extra comments would be appreciated

 

[mshilarious]

I'm not guaranteeing failure. I'm just saying that it's pushing one's luck. It just like the Challenger shuttle situation; the fact that the O-Rings didn't burn though all the way on the last launch is not evidence that they are safe on this launch.

G.

My worry is that unless the PC is flawlessly set up, there is enough potential for trouble just from software conflicts. And given that this is in a church environment, there are frequently too many fingers in the pie. Then in the middle of your concert, Norton Antivirus (which should not have been installed, or disabled before recording) decides to do a full system scan

 

[mshilarious]

so basically the only thing I should get then is the apogee's and that's it, granted I alread have a setup for a live event meaning analog mixer, mics. Any extra comments would be appreciated

Well obviously if you are looking at 32 channels of Apogee, you have some serious change to spend. If you are set on direct to PC recording, I would buy a purpose-built recording PC from a reputable vendor. That isn't going to be as cheap an self-built PC, but it should minimize the risk of critical failures.

And if you have the budget, get a couple of HD24s as backups. If the Apogees can output ADAT and Firewire simultaneously, you could even record to both PC and HD recorder live, and just toss out the HD tracks once you know you are safe.

Also be aware that weekly 32 track mixdowns are going to be a serious commitment of somebody's time. To truly do the quality of the converters (and I presume the rest of your chain) justice, that could take most of the week!

I would record a stereo mix bus and print straight to something like a Masterlink, just to have a quick-n-dirty mix right away, and save the full-bore multitracking for special occasions. But that all depends on the resources you have available.

 

[thegatekeeper]

This is going to be 1 weekend event only. The computer is going to be a custom built pc with the following

AMD Athlon 3200 64
1.5 GB Ram
2x hard drives 40gb and 250gb 7200 both with the 250 having 8mb cache
the system will be just formatted and tweaked to make sure like mshilarious said for nothing to go wrong. No antivirus installed nothing but the most needed updates for cubase and for system stability, then tweaked according to http://www.tweakhound.com for optimum performance

It's not that there's a substantial amount of cash left, it's that we have been working up to this event for some time, and not only that we're trying to record our cd soon, which would be another live event sometime in April. And with regards to "fingers in the pie," there are only 2 of us working unfortunately in a closed booth, but we got used to that already.

 

[SonicAlbert]

Yes, one of the Apogee's will function as the master clock for the rest of the rig. For convenience's sake you may need a distribution box like the Lucid CLKx6, but since you really won't be connecting that much gear, chaining the devices should work fine. Any device that doesn't have a WC connector can simply lock to it's digital input.

When is this event? I ask because you should leave at least two weeks (preferably four) before the event in order to fully set up and test your rig. You need this much time to troubleshoot, make changes to your gear design, and have enough lead time to order additional equipment you may need that you can't forsee now.

The recording test should include a full 32 track recording session that continues for at least as long as the projected event. All the mics, all the tracks, all the monitoring, etc.

A backup rig is essential, even if it is only a two track stereo mix recording to a separate computer or DAT machine. If something goes wrong with the main box, you still have something to go to later, which is better than nothing.

Apogee's are converters, you'll still need soundcards obviously that have the proper connectivity to interface with the Apogee's.

There's something to be said for a pair of Alesis HD24's being fed by the Apogee's. For a live event of 32 tracks I'd really be hesitant to use Cubase on a PC, I think you should seriously consider the hard disk multitrack option. Once you've got the tracks in the HD24, you just transfer them to your computer for editing and mixing.

If you go with the Cubase rig you better be darn sure your rig is working *perfectly* well in advance of the event. A ProTools HD or mix system is really one of the few DAW's I would trust with what you are planning to do. That, or a Hd recorder like the models from Alesis or Tascam.

Just my opinion.

 

[thegatekeeper]

so what else would I need to connect the apogee's to the computer. To me the concept of interface was a converter and a "communicator" with the computer. The apogee has an expansion slot for firewire. I could be wrong but what else do I need?

 

[mshilarious]

This is going to be 1 weekend event only. The computer is going to be a custom built pc with the following . . .
It's not that there's a substantial amount of cash left, it's that we have been working up to this event for some time, and not only that we're trying to record our cd soon, which would be another live event sometime in April. And with regards to "fingers in the pie," there are only 2 of us working unfortunately in a closed booth, but we got used to that already.

That all sounds good. However if it's a one weekend event, why not rent a pair of HD24s and Apogees (or whatever other high-end converters are available), then transfer the files to your PC for mixdown? You'll save about $6000 in the process.

 

[xstatic]

With the new X series Apogee stuff they become soundcards as well. The firewire options allow direct connectivity to software applications. Although, you will need some way to output the signal for mixing.

As for daisychaining wordclocks, a lot of that depends on the equipment you are chaining. Some converters try and reclock the signal. That is usually a bad thing.

For testing purposes, I would set up a 32 channel project and let it record silence for an hour or two. This way you can look pretty quickly for any clicks, pops, etc....

 

[SonicAlbert]

so what else would I need to connect the apogee's to the computer. To me the concept of interface was a converter and a "communicator" with the computer. The apogee has an expansion slot for firewire. I could be wrong but what else do I need?

Ah yes, if you have the firewire option that should be enough. If you are mixing in the computer that's all you'll need. If you want to mix the 32 tracks on a hardware mixer then you'll of course need the converters to get the signal back out of the computer.

 

[SonicAlbert]

Just to follow up again:

I looked at some pricing for the gear we are talking about. Those Apogee's are really pricey at $3,000 street price each (not including the firewire option). And you end up with 32 channels of AD only, if you want to mix analog you'll need to spend another $6,000 to get the 32 tracks out of your computer. That's really hefty.

The Alesis HD24's on the other hand are $1,500 each, so you'd get a 48 track system for $3,000 that you could use for recording and mixdown. Even with the converter upgrade and firewire options for the HD24's you end up spending a lot less.

However, if you are going to mix all this in Cubase and don't have to worry about converting 32 tracks back to analog for mixing, then the costs between the HD24 and Apogee systems are lot closer.