Question for the really smart guys . . .

[Son of Mixerman]

I have one question: Is a noise-shaping 1-bit DAC better than, say, a high-quality 24-bit DAC? I'm looking to buy a CD player and I can't figure which would be better

Uh... Im not sure those are the same thing. A 1 bit dac used for noise shaping would be used in conjunction with a 24 bit dac for downconversions. See Bob Katz articles on Dithering and noise shaping. CD's are 16 bit so I assume the 24 bit CD player is redithering on the output to the analog amp to help reduce the edgyness of digital. Sounds like a foo foo description by a marketing guy. The problem with mods of these sorts is not knowing the spec of the chip can head you down the wrong path and the next thing you know you've fried what your trying to solder because of heavy heat. Roels wiring methods might work, Id like to see a solder thats a chemical reaction where you drop a piece of this solder where you need then a small drop of a catylist to heat it up. Air dry,rinse and repeat.


SoMm

 

[Sangram]

http://www.ee.washington.edu/conselec/CE/kuhn/onebit/primer.htm

Looking at that, it's not really that foo-foo. Such a device does exist. But it is a bit of a cheat in a way because it uses psychoacoustic 'tricks' to hide its lower resolution at high frequency, so that its clock does not have to operate at 2.9 MHz.

Therefore, is it inferior (spellung? spellyng?) to 24-bit DACs of good quality? I've generally seen 1-bit at a mildly lower price point, but not significantly. AV audiophile magazines seem to claim 1-bit is better, but no hard data to back it up. Linearity is a solid advantage, but it's actually 'hiding' some frequencies from the ear, similar I guess to dithering/noise shaping.

 

[Sangram]

And, btw, I don't mean to spoil the fun but if you guys see someone close to you suffer because of discrimination, you'll know why I'm not overjoyed about it.

I know that here it is in good spirit, but in reality it's quite disgusting and shocking. I for one am not overjoyed by the reality.

 

[M.Brane]

And, btw, I don't mean to spoil the fun but if you guys see someone close to you suffer because of discrimination, you'll know why I'm not overjoyed about it.

I know that here it is in good spirit, but in reality it's quite disgusting and shocking. I for one am not overjoyed by the reality.

The problem we have in this country is the minds of women being poisoned by feminists into thinking that child rearing and domestic chores are degrading. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have no problem with women who choose a career outside the home as long as their family/children don't suffer because of it. Too many women seem to think you can do both successfully.

BTW sorry for hijacking the thread.....

http://www.ee.washington.edu/consel...ebit/primer.htm

Looking at that, it's not really that foo-foo. Such a device does exist. But it is a bit of a cheat in a way because it uses psychoacoustic 'tricks' to hide its lower resolution at high frequency, so that its clock does not have to operate at 2.9 MHz.

Therefore, is it inferior (spellung? spellyng?) to 24-bit DACs of good quality? I've generally seen 1-bit at a mildly lower price point, but not significantly. AV audiophile magazines seem to claim 1-bit is better, but no hard data to back it up. Linearity is a solid advantage, but it's actually 'hiding' some frequencies from the ear, similar I guess to dithering/noise shaping.

Thanks for that link. Most of that math is over my head but I get the general idea.

In audio as in life it seems there are always trade offs. Personally I trust my own ears a lot more than I trust any self-proclaimed "audiophile" magazine reviewer.

 

[Sangram]

The problem we have in this country is the minds of women being poisoned by feminists into thinking that child rearing and domestic chores are degrading. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have no problem with women who choose a career outside the home as long as their family/children don't suffer because of it. Too many women seem to think you can do both successfully.

Yeah that's the other extreme. Equally bad.

Most of that math is over my head but I get the general idea.

The math went completely over my head. I just read the intro and the end. In the middle of the paper I was staring at the screen, completely blank.

What I did get is that most 1-bit consumer products will have acceptable noise performance, but not extreme fidelity. A superbly made 24-bit DAC will almost always cost 3x of a 1-Bit DA for the same level of fidelity, but will be slightly superior because it does not rely on noise shaping tricks.

 

[Roel]

Roels wiring methods might work, Id like to see a solder thats a chemical reaction where you drop a piece of this solder where you need then a small drop of a catylist to heat it up. Air dry,rinse and repeat.

These kinda things exist...

There's this sortof paste, that you just rub where the pins need to be soldered, heat it with a heatgun, and it turns into solder that goes sticking to the pins. We don't have that over here...

For soldering SMD chips on a board (never did that myself though), over here they use some sort of fluid that makes the solder VERY fluid, so, you just put that on your board, a little bit of solder, and it will also just flow and stick around the pins. Kinda like the grease in yer solder, but fluid... You just go over the pins with a bit of solder and your done. Bit of cleaning up with desoldering wick if necessary and that's it... NOT for unexperienced solder-ers...

 

[Rochey]

speaking of marketing crap....

I once knew of a company that used a 20bit DAC on a CD player, and tied the 4 least significant pins to ground...

effectively making it a 16bit Dac...

Why they did this??? Because they could then put *20bit CD Player* on the box.

What a bunch of losers.....

R

 

[Roel]

Actually, that makes perfect sense to do that. My teacher used to say, a 20 bit DAC is effetively jsut a 16 bit DAC, with 4 bits of marketing. (Well, it depends, you can read it in the specs how many bits it can really convert in a precise manner. The lower bits on some DACs really don't have a meaning because of the output being not linear with the input, etc... All sorts of unprecision...)

So what they probably did was actually take a cheaper 20bit DAC instead of more precise expensive 16bit DAC, and only use the more acurate part of that 20bit DAC...

So that's rather nice engineering, missunderstood by the marketing/management guys.

You cannot have a 20 bit CD-player. The CD data format is only 16 bit. (Well, to be honest with you, there are 24bit formats, but they aren't all that common. Wow, am I smart or what?? )

 

[Rochey]

*sounds of homer simpson drooling*

hhuuuuurrrrgghhhh

Give me Burr Brown 127dB AD converters..... schweeet...



R