question for music theory nerds

L

little guy

New member
first, my question is, how does one switch from key to key in chord progressions. i want to be able to switch keys to keep the song interesting. here's an example:

i'll use the roman numeral system so i'll be able to understand.

the progression in the key of C/Am is C F Am G7 (roman numerals are I=C, IV=F, ii=Am, V7=G7)

the key i want to switch to is the key of G/Em with the same progression as the outcome (I-IV-ii-V7) .

so, what would you do in order to make the switch, so that it sounds nice?
if you could explain your reasons why you chose the path you did would help also.
 
Seems like you pretty much know the relative minors of each major chord- Am for C and Em for G etc.

Now considering that your original Key is in C and the progression you are using is C, F, Am, G7.
To transpose to a key all you have to do is count like this:

Let's write this down in order- C F Am G7
Now to go to the key of G, Howmany notes do you have from C to G?
Let's count- C#, D, D#, E, F, F# and G. There is a total of 7 notes(note that E does not have a sharp). Now to find the rest of the chords, simply count 7 notes for each chord.

For F- add 7 notes, which is- F#, G, G#, A, A#, B, C. So the second chord is C.
For Am- add 7 notes, which is- A#m, Bm, Cm, C#m, Dm, D#m, Em(note there is no sharps for B). So the third chord is Em.

For G7- add 7 notes, which is- G#7, A7, A#7, B7, C7, C#7, D7. So the fourth chord is D7.

As you can see the new progression for the key of G is: G-C-Em-D7.

Hope this helps.
 
i'm sorry i think i might have worded the question incorrectly. i know how to transpose into the key of G/Em. the problem is making a smooth transition from C/Am to G/Em. how would the transition look?
 
i usually use the 5th of the scale of the key you're transposing TO for the transition chord. (that's what i call it anyway).

for your example it would be D7 leading into the G. i don't have my guitar here but i think that will work. give it a try.

hth

later...
 
little guy said:
i'm sorry i think i might have worded the question incorrectly. i know how to transpose into the key of G/Em. the problem is making a smooth transition from C/Am to G/Em. how would the transition look?
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The are ten thousand ways of doing it (at the very least). That is what they call songwriting.

(I'm not trying to be an ass here, but it is just not a question with an answer).

By the by, A minor is NOT the ii of the key of C, it is the vi, and relative minors are different keys than the major, so you are in either C major or A Minor.

The most common way to change keys, however, is with some kind of a cadence, and which one is very style dependent. In Jazz/R&B/Soul, it will usually be a ii7-V7-I (dmin7-G7-C if you are going to the key of C), for instance.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
soooooooo... would the "transition progression" look like this:

C F Am G7
C F Am G7

C F Am D7 (the transition from the key of C to G)

G C Em D7
G C Em D7

G C Em G7 (the transition from the key of G to C)

would this work as a way to transition back and forth between the keys of C and G?
 
Light said:
(I'm not trying to be an ass here, but it is just not a question with an answer).
Click to expand...
just good at it i guess.

Light said:
By the by, A minor is NOT the ii of the key of C, it is the vi, and relative minors are different keys than the major, so you are in either C major or A Minor.
Click to expand...


my bad, i was doing two things at once when i typed the progression so i wasn't quite paying attention to what i was typing. i'm quite aware that Am is the vi.
 
little guy said:
soooooooo... would the "transition progression" look like this:

C F Am G7
C F Am G7

C F Am D7 (the transition from the key of C to G)

G C Em D7
G C Em D7

G C Em G7 (the transition from the key of G to C)

would this work as a way to transition back and forth between the keys of C and G?
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Well, I think I've heard it before, but sure thing.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
so to correct my mistake i want to create a transition the key of C to the key of G while maintaining the same chord progression of I-IV-vi-V7

key of C (C-F-Am-G7) to the key of G (G-C-Em-D7).

and i'm not looking for any smart assed unhelpful answers like, there are tons of ways to do it that's called song writing. sorry i'm not psychic and can't just come up with a smooth transition. i'm in need of guidance, i understand there are tons of ways to make the transition.. i just don't know how to come up with them.
 
Light said:
Well, I think I've heard it before, but sure thing.
Click to expand...

i'm not surprised that you've probably heard that progression before, there's not too many original progressions, music has been around for a long time.
 
There is no one method to transition. Note that all music is subjective. What you compose as a transition might be wonderful for one person and disgusting to another.

Classical music is a good example of jumping keys. Some of them are disgusting. While some are really nice to my ears....it's subjective- nothing personal.
 
It's not really that much of a stretch to go from the key of C to the key of G...it's only one note that's different (F-->F#)...
 
Simplest way might be to use what appears in the original key as a secondary dominant but then turns into the dominant of the new key.

Secondary dominants like V/V or V/iii or V/vi can appear pretty much any time, meandering back to the tonic in whatever way suits your ear. They can also pivot to a new key so what would be V/X suddenly has X treated as a new I.

EDIT: If one hasn't seen it before, V/V means "V of V". In the key of C, V is G, so "V of V" is D. The secondary dominants most often appear as dominant 7 chords, but I didn't add the 7's to everything so it wouldn't get too cluttered with symbols

Tim
 
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little guy said:
and i'm not looking for any smart assed unhelpful answers like, there are tons of ways to do it that's called song writing. sorry i'm not psychic and can't just come up with a smooth transition. i'm in need of guidance, i understand there are tons of ways to make the transition.. i just don't know how to come up with them.
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What the fuck are you looking for? I gave told you the most common way of doing what you are asking about. Any time you are changing to a new key, the most compelling transition will be through some form of dominant cadence, with a ii-V7-I being the most common. But you can do all kinds of others. IV-V7-I is of course the most "classical" version of it. Or you could use a vii7(flat 5)-I. Or tritone substitution works (ii-flat II7-I).

So what is it you are looking for? I answered your question, so all I can think of is that you want us to write your song for you, and that is not going to happen. Now, if you have a theory question which is specific enough for someone to have a specific answer, then maybe someone can help.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
little guy said:
soooooooo... would the "transition progression" look like this?
Click to expand...
The word you're looking for is modulation. When a piece of music "migrates," so to speak, from one key to another, it's called modulation. I only bring it up because it might prevent future confusion in the discussion. Someone has already mistakenly assumed you were asking about transposition, for instance.

little guy said:
and i'm not looking for any smart assed unhelpful answers like, there are tons of ways to do it that's called song writing.
Click to expand...
And yet, that's the only answer available. There isn't a modulation formula. Some artists, in some songs, go for sudden, surprising key modulations. Other artists, in other songs, work their way through many keys (and dozens of measures) before arriving at the key in which they wrap up the song. It's an art, not a science. The mission of the songwriter is to find a modulation that fits the mood of the piece and that is pleasing to the ear. (And even that's going too far, now that I think of it, because the mood of the piece might require that the modulation not be pleasing to the ear.) I don't see how Light could have answered you any differently.

sorry i'm not psychic and can't just come up with a smooth transition.
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It's not like people here are trying to keep secrets from you. They're not trying to make you guess the right answer. There just isn't one. If you want some brilliant examples of modulation to study, you might listen to some of Bach's inventions and fugues. But even Bach could not hand you a formula and say, "Well, to get from C to G, I always do this..."
 
I just tried it, and D7 works fine

Let's see. Is the mission here to help the other guy out, is the mission to demonstrate that we know more than the next guy, or is the mission to show that the next guy doesn't know much?

Little Guy, the next time you want straight answers to simple questions without the guff, try the Beginner or Music Theory boards at www.guitar.com.
 
You need to remember that the key you are playing in is not always clear cut... it's about what notes you brain expects to hear...

Imagine you start strumming a couple of chords... lets say C and F... that's a I to IV progression in the key of C... but on the other hand you could easily be playing a V to I progression in the key of F... same chords... same physical sound but the key is ambiguous... it can go either way... of course since you started on the C chord your brain will assume you are in the key of C, it's a guess... a hypothesis..., your brain will and expect the rest of the song to pan out in a certain way... but switch to a Bb (IV in the key of F) and the story changes... your perception flips from one interpretation to another... so was that a key change or were you already in the key of F... your brain will percieve it as a key change the first time but in reality you could have been in F all along... play the same chord progression again now knowing that you are going to the Bb and it will sound like the key of F from the start...

again I'll repeat keys are about what your brain expects you to do next...

So to get to your question how to you lead a song from one key to another... if you can find out what Tim Lawler is talking about you'll probably know how to do it! Otherwise use your ears... in my experience if it sounds good the chances are you've got the theory right as well!

Disclaimer: I know bugger all about music theory.

Cheers
Al
 
This picture helps to make perception clearer...

Audio perception... i.e. the way out brain interprets sound is like visual perception in that often the same input can be processed in more than one way to reach multiple conclusions...

To switch key you've got to make the image flip!
 

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little guy said:
i'll use the roman numeral system so i'll be able to understand.

the progression in the key of C/Am is C F Am G7 (roman numerals are I=C, IV=F, ii=Am, V7=G7)

the key i want to switch to is the key of G/Em with the same progression as the outcome (I-IV-ii-V7) .

so, what would you do in order to make the switch, so that it sounds nice?
if you could explain your reasons why you chose the path you did would help also.
Click to expand...

I think I might try

C F A7 D

if you wanted a slightly more exotic sound.
 
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