Question about volume level

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Kerfoot32

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So I know that in the mix all the meters have to stay under the red, especially the master. But what if when I have all those levels right the song is too quiet? Is this fixed in mastering? Like if I compare the mix to a real song and the volume is significantly lower do I just relax and worry about that in mastering? Can any volume level be achieved in mastering as long as the mixing levels were correct?
 
Yes, leave the final level of the mix to the mastering stage. You can make it arbitrarily "loud", but you trade away dynamics.
 
You can put a compressor.limiter on the master to hear an idea of what it will sound like as you may want to adjust the attack release times of your drums to suit global compression.
 
Too soft? What about turning up the volume knob til it's loud?

Cheers :)
 
Kerfoot32 said:
Can any volume level be achieved in mastering as long as the mixing levels were correct?
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There is always a limit, but a good mastering engineer will be able to get a higher final output level, or at least a more consistent level than you or I could at home.

Quite often metered volume and perceived volume are two different things. For example, a master meter might be peaking at -6 because or some bass frequencies that you barely pick up on, whereas someone else's mix peaking at -6 could be caused by higher frequencies that seem louder to the ear, or to which the ear is more sensitive.

What I'm saying is it's a lot about balance; The substance of a mix.

I think this is where mastering engineers really show their strength because I could faff with a limiter for ages and get no where, whereas they might eq my mix 'properly' then just be able to turn up the master fader.

For me, commercial loudness is only really important in a commercial environment where you directly compete, like radio for example, and even then, those guys will smash your mix to make it the same as everything else anyway, so what's the point?
Any use?
 
A lot of my favorite albums have a pretty varying range of master volumes, I've noticed. For example: right now, I'm loving Veneficum's album, "In Tranquil Absurd". The master volume = loud as shit. On the other hand, Death's "Human" album (another big favorite) is pretty low in master volume. The mix on each of those albums sound just fine; it's purely a difference in master volume.

When I'm mixing my own material, I try to minimize the red peaking as much as possible. I've managed to get as much master volume as I can out of my latest album, and in comparison to a lot of other albums, it's a hair quieter. And I'm quite satisfied with the final product. So the moral of the story is that if your master volume happens to be a little lower in comparison to others, don't sweat it. Unless it's completely absurdly quiet or ass-and-balls-shattering loud, people won't notice. In my opinion, there's a decent sized window of 'normalcy' when it comes to master volume.

Hell, most people don't notice a shit mix or a complete absolute lack of talent or musical decency too, but that's for another discussion altogether. But I digress.
 
A mix with some "quite" levels and a lot of dynamic range is a good thing. If some levels are low in level and that is the feel and balance of the mix that is perfectly fine. Overloading the mix bus with the "creeping" faders as I call them is never good. Try and balance you mix off of the kick and the snare and go from there. Kick round (-4 & -6) and snare maybe a lil higher or lower according to taste. Pahtub gave great advice and what I would suggest is the use of comp. If levels are a lil high the use of Sub Mix/Buses with the Aux is key send drums to Bus/Aux, all vocals to their Bus/Aux, all BGV, FX. And us comp to bring the level to a decent level before going to the Master Mix Bus. When my mixes go off to master my Master Mix Bus level is -6 dBFS.
 
Yellow is the new red for digital mixing. Absolutely no reason to push the meters even into the yellow. Just turn up your monitors if you want loud. Digital clipping does not sound good, so why risk it when there is absolutely nothing to gain by pushing levels to the limit. I generally aim for -18dbfs RMS levels, and try to keep the peak levels under -10 dbfs. Percussive elements like kick and snare are obviously going to have higher peak levels and lower RMS levels. That has made mixing a lot easier, and the mixes come together way faster.
 
guitar zero said:
Yellow is the new red for digital mixing. Absolutely no reason to push the meters even into the yellow. Just turn up your monitors if you want loud. Digital clipping does not sound good, so why risk it when there is absolutely nothing to gain by pushing levels to the limit. I generally aim for -18dbfs RMS levels, and try to keep the peak levels under -10 dbfs. Percussive elements like kick and snare are obviously going to have higher peak levels and lower RMS levels. That has made mixing a lot easier, and the mixes come together way faster.
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This is the key, I haven't heard but im sure "guitar zero" mixes sound like as if done on a analog console. I like that yellow is the new red. Just trying mixing with -18 rms and peaks @ -10 and then do a mix the conventional way (with instrument/track levels are no lower than -6) and you will be SURPRISED of your results. Things that are digital must go analog at some point even while in digital so why not build/create/design the sound as if in a analog domain and not in a digital one. This gain staging that "guitar zero" just mentioned is proly the greatest advice any young or old eng could know. I even see pros that still pull up pro tools session and everything is pumping above -6 I just shake my head in disappointment. Analog modeled plugins even clip "internally" in a digital domain. No you dont hear it but the crunching of the harmonics "DESTROYS THE SOUND" if you dont believe me drive the plugin till the VU meters is slapping to the right like a rag doll and listen to the sound. Then gain stage the sound and re enter the sound into the plugin to where it hits right @ 0 VU tell me you dont hear the difference.
 
Another way to hear harmonic "destruction" is apply the waves NLS plugin, the Channel plugin that is and place it on a conventional track where the instruments slams around -3 or even 0 and cut the "Mic" input button on the plugin COVER YOUR EARS! Terrible isnt? Then trim the actual sound of the track to -18 before the NLS channel plugin and then pull the NLS channel fader all the way down again initiate the "Mic" input button and slowly bring the fader of the NLS plugin slowly up and listen to the difference "AMAZING HUH??!!!" You wll hear real analog mixer harmonic distortion. There is a fine line between harmonic distortion and harmonic "destruction". Gain staging is so very, very, very, vital.
 
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