Question about using mic preamps

  • Thread starter Thread starter Orpheus
  • Start date Start date
hi.

well, i tried the manual.... but it really doesn't talk about "unity." it does list a level setting procedure, but it's nothing that's not common sense.

i guess then the question is, "what is unity?" i know on the faders it's at the 0 or "U" position. but on the trim there is no 0 or "U" position.

now, i figure the best configuration is to have the trim at a position where there is no amplification nor attenuation. is that what you mean by "unity?" ....but i have no idea where this position is on the 32x8 trim knob.

and what's the definition of "unity?"
 
unity = 0

Nothing added, nothing taken away. Chess is telling you to set your faders there and turn the trim pot all the way down.

War :)

Warren Dent
www.frontendaudio.com
 
Warhead said:
Nothing added, nothing taken away.
Click to expand...
Yes - except something is being added...... you're taking away any sonic benefit you may have had with your external pre by routing it thru the likely cheaper quality pres of the mixer.

It makes absolutely zero sense to route the signal this way if you have say the outputs of a Great River pre going back into a Mackie channel input.

In doing this, you've reduced the calibre of the Great River right back down to the calibre of the Mackie.... so why did one bother using the Great River in the first place....???

I'm not sure why this concept is so difficult to grasp, Orpheus?!?
 
Orpheus -

On my Mackie mixer, setting the trim knob to it's center position is zero gain. There is a small detent you can "feel" when you turn the knob to center.

I'd have to agree with the Bear on routing. Run your pre-amp output directly to the recording source. If you need a higher level for monitoring purposes, get it from somewhere else, maybe one of the direct monitoring outputs on your MOTU could be used.

I've been struggling with the best configuration of inputs and outputs with my system as well. I currently have my DAW output channels and outboard effect units connected to a patch bay. The patch bay also feeds my mixer. This way I can audition different effects on various tracks.

I've resisted using putting the mixer in any input signal patch for the reasons Bear mentioned. I could be kidding myself but I feel that my Aard Q10 pres are slightly better than the Mackie's
 
so....

on my trims on my DPS12, one side says mic, one side says line. obviously i use the mic side when im using mics. so i turned it down to the middle of the two, assumming this is zero for both line and mic. but no matter how little or how much i tweak the gain and drive on my pre amp, i get a distorted sound, the signal itself isnt peaking, but the sound is distorted. im confused.
 
No -- move fully to the LINE side for line-leve signals... THAT is the line-level "unity" point...
 
now let me start again, a little simpler for my simple self.
im using an oktava 319mk, into a presonus blue tube pre, into a dps 12. for best results, should my trim be higher on the mic side and tweak with the gain and drive on the pre, or should the trim be lower on the mic side, and just use the pre gain and drive for best level? when i do the latter, its very distorted. sorry for being so repetitve, just trying to grasp this stupid simple concept.
 
Gee, I've never quoted myself before, but here goes.........



Robert D said:
Unless you have some compelling reason to do so, you should not be going through an external pre AND a mixer. The most direct path to tape (or disk, or whatever) is the path to audio enlightenment. :cool: RD
Click to expand...

This IS what the big studios do, and they take but a few seconds to patch it in on the old patch bay.

Here's the concept. Two panes of glass, one perfectly clear and clean, one a little dirty, put together. The result is that the dual panes are only as clear as the dirty pane. The fact that one pane is as clear as can be means nothing, and is completely lost. This is what you are insisting on doing for the sake of using your mixer as a router or brain of your system.

I hope that helps, RD
 
Excellent analogy, Robert!

I seem to have had to repeat myself on this thread too... I don't know why the concept seems so difficult to grasp!
 
are you guys repeating your selfs for my sake? because i'm using a mixer. just want some dial setting recomendations.
 
I'm not sure why this concept is so difficult to grasp, Orpheus?!?
Click to expand...
it's not difficult to grasp! i understand what you say completely, and i recognize your points. and you're completely right.................... IN A WAY.

think about it this way then..... in today's environment, you don't really need a mixer at all. it isn't hard to rewire everything here into a patchbay, and completely bypass the mixer. everything can go straight into the recording gear. why don't i do that?--again, i want everything laid out in front of me. i want a monitor section. i want the flexibility of a real mixer.

i find it hard to believe that big million dollar studios don't still route their preamps through the main mixing board. if it's a pro tools studio, i can understand. but those with SSL's or something.... they bought a zillion dollar board for a reason.

benefits of using mixing board:

1. meters
2. create many mixes: for band members, for monitoring in studio
3. easy routing to effects
4. easy adjustment of levels
5. etc..... lots more... can't think of for now

benefits of direct connection:

1. a little bit better sound quality.

well, i've never worked in a pro studio before. but i still really doubt that big studios wire their pres directly when using a large format console. there's just no reason for a console then.

so may i ask what you need your own mackie for? you can reroute everything directly too. no need for your own console if you don't need the functions i've listed.
On my Mackie mixer, setting the trim knob to it's center position is zero gain. There is a small detent you can "feel" when you turn the knob to center.
Click to expand...
phyl.... thanks, but there's no indent on my knobs. and i'm not completely sure that's unity (based on the way mine are labeled): are your trim knobs marked the same as mine?
I hope that helps, RD
Click to expand...
thanks rd, .............but i COMPLETELY knew what you guys were talking about from the beginning. i was never arguing with you about the merits of a direct connection.

i would say, "I don't understand why you guys are not grasping what i'm saying!"

here's the deal. my mixer controls everything here. if i route directly to the recording gear, it's much harder to add effects, make mixes, and that sort of stuff. my studio's not really setup like that. i use lots of inputs and outputs simultaneously. it's just not practical for me.
 
jaeden, i think something else is wrong, not just that trim dial. if you've tweaked it and the pre output all you can, and it still sounds like a distortion guitar... then i dunno what's wrong... but it ain't where you're putting the trim pot.

you said you were connecting the mic straight to the mixer?--no outboard preamp right?
 
Orpheus said:
i find it hard to believe that big million dollar studios don't still route their preamps through the main mixing board.
Click to expand...
Well you can believe what you like... but it's true, unless they're using the pres ON-BOARD the mixer itself, no pro engineer routes an outboard pre thru the mixer (unless they're going for that specific color of sound - which is not what we're talking about here)....

AS for your own situation, do whatever works for you -- just recognize that you everytime your route your signal thru something extraneous, it affects and degrades the sound quality.... to what degree depends entirely on the gear in question.
 
yes, i understand. point taken. ;)

but how come you don't wire EVERYTHING directly since you seem to really like direct connections? you pretty much can do everything within the computer these days.
 
-phyl.... thanks, but there's no indent on my knobs. and i'm not completely sure that's unity (based on the way mine are labeled): are your trim knobs marked the same as mine?-


Unity means a zero gain.

My knobs have a "detent" not an indent, and it's not a visible marking, it's a feeling that you get when you turn the knob.

When you turn the knob through the center position you "feel" a little click or detent, this is the unity setting. My mixer is the VLZ1200 something or other, not sure how it compares to yours.
 
Orpheus said:
yes, i understand. point taken. ;)

but how come you don't wire EVERYTHING directly since you seem to really like direct connections? you pretty much can do everything within the computer these days.
Click to expand...

From what I understand, studios do run some stuff into the mixing board while tracking because they aren't looking for any thing special on those tracks, i.e., the Mackie (or whatever) pres are good enough.

But for those tracks that demand special treatment - maybe its a vocal, maybe it's a sensitive acoustic guitar part - they use an outboard pre chosen for its special sonic detail. The output of this pre goes directly into the recording source to preserve its unique nature.
 
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