Pushing the Rei envelope

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S8-N

S8-N

..|.. Part-time Antichrist ..|..
There is a theory that in a $3000 home studio you will never be able to surpass the results that you could get in a $30,000 studio... Or 300,000 studio... But let me say this: That theory diverges from reality (as do most).
I have surpassed in quality (in my $3000 studio) approximately 10% of the professionally recorded CD's in my collection (which were all recorded in pro studios in the past ten years).
I have a theory about this:
Studio engineers aren't going to be as fanatical as you will be about making your band sound good.
Studio engineers usually have different ideas than the musicians about what is a good sound. If an engineer isn't a fan of the type of music you are playing, he is going to be at a loss as to how to properly record and mix it.
A studio full of high-dollar gear is obviously CAPABLE of producing a better sound than my bedroom full of low-end gear... But it hasn't been happening. I have recorded in five "pro" studios and the results can't even touch what I have been doing here at home. I can play CD's of music from my collection that sound like ass compared to the stuff I have been recording. Does it mean that the studio in which that music was recorded sucked??? No, it just means that it maybe wasn't the right studio for that particular band...
I dont think I am really getting the point across very well, so let me just say this: I had rather have MY sound than a PRO sound. That is why a home studio is the answer for me.
 
Although I agree on several of your points I tend to differ
on others.

I would not choose a Pro studio with out taking the Engineer in mind. I choose mine by the style and personality
and how capable they are.

Why record country music in a heavy metal oriented studio ?.
True you will be more fanatical about your music, but I find that it's always good to hear an opinion and to have another set of ears to help out. When I want a specific sound I insist and if the engineer says other wise then I thank him for his opinion but do it my way.

I Do agree that your sound is better for you then a pro sound and it seems that home studios are starting to close the gap of quality slowly not to mention comfterbility,
Saving money etc...

I think that a combination can get you the best of both worlds.
You can record Drums in a pro studio sub mix there or at home, record all the rest at home or just bring your tracks to the studio and use a finer vocal mic to record vocals, Mix at home etc....
 
I just spent almost an hour typing a reply to this post and accidentally hit the wrong key and erased it. So nevermind...
 
I have to agree for the most part with S8-N. I personally think that I'm about equal (in quality) to most of the project studios around my area; except for one, which blows my stuff away (and I've worked with one of the two owners of that studio).
 
But if we're talking about the PRO studios, I doubt any of use can touch them. I wish I'm wrong.
 
It's that one stuffed full of client's cash for a good recording... :)
 
Ed,
The "Rei envelope" is the theory which I heard first from you that your recordings will only sound as good as the equipment you use. I started banging into this "glass ceiling" when trying to match the sound of the first Korn album.
You reach a point in your mix when it sounds as good as it is going to sound and no amount of EQ tweakage or compression is going to help.
When I refer to "pushing" this envelope, I mean tweaking and re-tweaking your mix to get the best sound you can get from your equipment.
I think that there are instances when I can surpass the sound of a pro studio. For instance I can work on a mix for 2 weeks and get it sounding better than a pro-studio recording that was done in one day.
 
This is a query for Ed.

My job is computer animation, at least thats what I tell people I do for living, and I know the power, if thats the right word, of computers at least as it relates to animation. Two years ago it took our computers 30 to 40 minutes to do a ray trace of one single frame of animation, which goes by at 30 frames a second. It took 3 machines one solid week of 24/7 computing to get a 30 second animation. Now one machine can do it in 2 to 3 days. In the trades I read, tales of computer generated virtual actors coming soon, are the norm, (not looking forward to that). What I'm getting at, is sound is easy peasy for computers. With a high end sound card, great monitors, amplifier, some good mikes, what other equipment do you need that can't be replicated in software for the studio. It may not be here yet for the consumer level but in the very near future we will be putting on our 3d goggles and virtual mittens to do a mix in 3D real time, placing our sounds on a 3D sound stage front,back, right, left. People say they get a more realistic or convincing sound by miking their cab but any sound can be duplicated in software all thats needed is an intuitive interface to tweak to what you want, including that "warm tube" sound everybody seems to love. It's not a matter of if but when this will happen.

Of course this doesn't help anyone if they don't know what they are doing, but I think the professional gear thing will be moot, except for the equipment to get the signal to the computer and the speakers to listen to it. Am I wrong?
 
I don't think you're wrong. But I wish you were. How boring.
 
I will only say this.

When I start hearing recordings coming out of home setups that as a rule compare in sonic quality to what I usually hear out of professional studios I will concede the point.

I have looked around at what a lot of the people on this bbs are using for recording. It would be safe to say that I probably have the most extensive setup on here. Even with that, I still do not think that the sonic quality of my recordings match yet the sound I hear off of great sounding CD done at the big boy places.

I have heard mp3's from people on this forum that sound ok, but nothing that has really made me want to ask how they delivered such a great sound with such inferior equipment. It just isn't the skill of the engineer. Without good tools you can't apply a craft at the same level as someone with the same skills can do with better tools. This really doesn't need to be said but I am saying it because it obviously needs to be said.

Concerning modeling software.

I have listened to the POD, I have played with some plugin's at a mastering suite ($100 an hour place!!!) and have decided that we are a long way off from having software that can even come close to offering the variety of color to the sound that analog devices offers. I is actually quite impossible for this to ever be the case. Capacitors, resistors, op amps, etc...have their good and bad days. They have character that provides variation to what they do that is contantly changing. Let's not even go into what happens once the gear starts to "settle in" if you will. Computer software pretty much works the way the it is told to work. They take the specs of one piece of gear and spend one day specing it out then emulate the specs. Ok. Fine. Good. Not real life!!!

Anyway, from what I have heard of the "clone" software stuff, well, it is like sampled drums. Nice, but not the real thing. A very skilled person can fool some into thinking it is the real thing but many will still pick up that something is amiss.

So, if you all think that your home setup's are going to provide the fidelity at a few thousand dollars that you can get with a investment of several thousand dollars, well, have at it. But when you put up a post hear asking why your little ol' home setup doesn't deliver the sound that you hear on CD's that are done at big studios, well, sonusman will be sitting here telling you the same thing that I he has been saying for several months on here.

S8-N.

I have decided to put this response on here for all to see because I feel that you might need a little waking up hear.

I have never in anyway done anything on this bbs to try to make you look bad. In fact, more times than not, I find agreeable things to say concerning replies you make.

My problem here is that I feel that the whole basis of this post here is for you to make what I believe look bad. It starts with the "thumbs down" icon you are using on the post. It goes on with the title "Pushing the Rei envelope".

I am not making a threat here. But, if you want to continue with this, well, look out please. I can be quite articulate and can nit pic anything to it's death. I have never felt a need to do any of the above on this bbs because I feel that it is a place to share ideas without having to make anyone look bad.

If you want to state you opinion, state it. But, don't state it in a way that is intended to make someone else look bad. The last thing this bbs needs is for people to be going at it for all to see.

If you have a problem with something I say or post, contact me directly. Don't put my name in a post with a thumbs down icon unless you are prepared for the verbal onslaught that will follow the next one you choose to do that way.....Peace.

Ed "Rei"
 
We technical types (I'm assuming most of us are technical, otherwise why would we be fiddling with all this complicated gear?) tend to focus on technical things and forget the fact that recording engineers are capturing (or in some cases creating) a performance. Listen back to old records even from the 50s or earlier; if they've captured a performance artist who has spilled his or her soul out onto tape, you've got something really special that will never lose its magic.

A lot of the highest quality productions from million dollar studios sound great technically but they have no soul. You can produce stuff in a $3,000 studio that will speak to someone, get their attention. That together with competent engineering and reasonable gear can do a great job of capturing and reproducing a performance.

Now and then I like to take out my early ZZ Top recordings, complete with studio noises, buzzes and hums--they absolutely kick butt over their 80's albums which were obviously high end productions but overproduced. They had lost the gritty, down-home feel of the earlier albums.

Probably the highest end recordings you will find are the audio tracks of major TV advertising campaigns. You would never reproduce anything close to those types of sounds in the studio. But I'll bet you might be able to produce something that somebody will actually want to listen to...what would you rather do?
 
I'm not trying to make you look bad, Ed, but you seem to be doing a good job looking bad none the less. I actually kinda liked you up untill I just read your last post. Bring on any verbal onslaught you might have, ol' boy... just try and sober up first, because booze and typing don't mix.
Sorry to be so forward, but you havent been helpful enough lately to warrant an ass kissing from me.
No insult was meant when I wrote about the "Rei envelope"... but if that's how you want to take it, fine.

S8-N
 
Whoa. I was just looking for a little intellectual debate on the *future* of home recording with computers, hoping there was hope for those of us with modest means to get close to the pro sound someday. Of course I realize a big part of the pro sound is technique, experience and skill of the engineer which is why I tread this forum, looking to improve myself.

Ed,I guess I was leading with my chin a bit after rereading that first post of mine. No offense was meant, I just wanted your opinion, with which I disagree but I think I will wait a bit to respond.

Concerning S8-N, he always posts with a thumbs down! I didn't get the feeling he was trying to make you look bad. Mostly I was hearing that there needs to be a collaboration between the engineer and the artist and he didn't find it and decided to stop looking and do it himself.
 
sonusman:

I didn't get the impression that S8-N was "ripping" on you or anything you've posted either.

S8-N admitted he wasn't wording what he was trying to say very well. I think Tapehead worded it better. I have to agree that I enjoy more of that natural "grit" on recordings. Unfortunetly, a lot of people interpret that as lesser quality. I truely think a lot has to do with the "vibe" the band has while recording and a lot is up to the producer.

In fact, I've been thinking about what I'd like to submit via CD to sonusman for the Compilation since he has been gracious enough to do the mastering. If space would permit and The Group would concise, I'd like to submit two different home recordings of the same song, from the same band, but all the band members aren't the same.

What I intend to show/compare is what I think a lot of people would consider more on the "pro" side (at least in comparison to a lot of "home" recordings); what my brother and I call the overproduced mix, cheesy version/arrangement and what I think a lot of people would consider a "home" recording (at least in comparison to the other).

Most people I show this comparison to love the overproduced mix, cheesy version/arrangement, but I love the "home" recording a lot more; although I hate the drum sound. Actually, it sucks; and I'm the drummer.

If there's not enough space or some would feel I'm trying to "steal the spotlight" or feel "it's not fair", then they could just be portions for comparison, or I'll just scrap the idea. I just feel this might be quite a learning tool; since that's what it's ALL about.

I'll post a portion of this on the Compilation Forum.
 
Layth.

No offense taken either. Actually you querr was very informative as well as a good point. It is a question that I have pondered myself, whether software modeling can deliver "pro sound" with no real knowledge of it's foundation. I will not disagree with the fact that "modeling" software will help low end equipment users achieve better results, but, as the low end get's better, well, the top end does too. Many "professional studios" are still using out of date, or less than state of the art gear because they lack the business to generate the income to upgrade. But, there are studios starting at least once a year that house a $1.6 million dollar SSL console. Little things like Class A discreet preamps, silver wiring, Nuemann mics, etc......are a giving in a facility like that.....The thing is, everyone is still trying to get that sound. And when the game heats up, the big boys raise the standard to a whole new level that keeps them ahead of the game. That is my point.

To compare what I can do in my studio to an old say Kansas recording is not ever fair. Of course I can get a better overall sound than they did back in the 70's. Whether the songs I am recording, or the musicianship is as good, well, that is purely a subjective thing. But when it comes to the sonic quality of the recordings, well, I just have better gear available to me than they did back then. So, you can't really compare old recordings to new in sonic quality. The old recordings just are not going to measure up.

But, even though I can deliver a better fidelity by standards of 20 years ago, does that mean that my recordings compare to newer recordings? No. The stakes are higher now. They get higher every year.

I keep making the point that you need to make considerable investments to make recordings that the big boys make. Of course with enough time and effort and knowledge you can "maximize" the potential of the low end gear you have. But, the fact remains that by the time you finish you mix, another Class A product will come out with all the latest technology. And by the time somebody makes a product that you can actually afford in a hobby studio that comes even somewhat close to the same quality, well, the standards where probably already raised again. Untill you get into the game, you can't expect to keep up with it. You will always lag behind. This is just simple facts.

Now concerning a client getting what they want out of their experience in a studio.

Without fail every client I have worked with has insisted upon doing something while recording that distracted from the overall quality of the recording because they didn't have the knowledge to know that what they where doing was not what they wanted. Not knowing how the room sounds. Not knowing a thing about masking effects, etc......So, it is really easy to go into a studio with no producer, not knowing a damn thing about recording, not having very good gear, and telling the engineer how to do things, and then when it sounds awfull, to blame the studio for messing up your sound.

The only point that S8-N has made that has a shred of truth to it is that at least at home you can do it the way you want to. Of course, many learn quite quickly that engineering at a professional level is no easy task. So, because he doesn't have to finish a recording in any set amount of time because the clock is not rolling, of course he will have time to learn just what he doesn't know.

Any of you tell me what kind of time you spend recording your songs at home right down to the hour. Then, come on it to Echo Star and we will spend the same amount of time recording the same cut. I will bet a months wages that I will definately deliver a superior sounding product if you are willing to spend that kind of dough. Next, let's go record that same song at like the Record Plant. Every step up will make you realize the limitations of the step below.

I hear people talking about spending 6 days to mix there song on here. I go and listen and often wonder what they where doing for 6 days. Certainly the mix didn't sound like it would if you spent 6 days at a real recording studio. Hell, I can whip out a whole demo of like 6 songs that would sound better in the same amount of time.

I have posted mixes on this bbs. They are free to download and to critque. All are free to do so. If you find yourself doubting what I have to say, well, download a mix that I post. Then, post something that you did that you think is better with your home setup. When I start hearing stuff posted that sounds like the big boy stuff, well, I will just close up shop because obviously there will be no need for professional studios.

I will say this agian. Most low end recording equipment was basically designed as tools for songwriters. This stuff was never intended for high quality music production. If you care to accept that point, you won't bang your head trying to figure out some miracle cure for your audio wows. The fact is, if a piece of my equipment is not delivering the quality of sound that is required for the job, I get something that will. I don't kid myself that a ADA effects processor will ever replace an Eventide, or Lexicon. That doesn't mean that the ADA is worthless, it may be just the right sound for certain things, but if we are going to play the percentages, the Lexicon or Eventide is going to deliver just what you want 100 times more often.

I have said all that I will say in this thread.

Ed
 
Nevermind.

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 01-05-2000).]
 
Man, this is exactly why some of the other music boards, and especially usenet...SUCK. This sort of ridiculous BITCHING really takes a lot of the fun out of this shit.

Bitching leads to people taking sides, and taking sides leads to seperation. Duh. I don't come to this BBS for half-assed ideas. I want the full ass....or... something. Nevermind.

S8-N: Even though I disliked you for a while after you totally reamed me for posting a little clip of a cover that I had recorded after JUST STARTING to record...I have quite a bit of respect for you now, and look forward to your critics of my posts more than anyone BECAUSE you're negative. I know now that you're not an asshole, even though you play one in real life. It would be nice though if you'd let up every now and then....this isn't the fight for ultimate truth here...it's a bunch of dipshits in their underpants duking it out in "cyberspace". shit. The ultimate fight is our up-and-coming arm-wrestling match.

Ed. I think that everyone will agree with you to some extent about this whole equipment thing. But you know that you see things from a different perspective because you're more experienced. The best recording I've ever heard, and I've recently come to this conclusion, is Buddy Guy's Stone Crazy album. Recorded Halloween night 1979 (ONE NIGHT, no overdubs) in France...it's one of the most powerfull pieces of work I've ever heard. I'm sure they didn't have the state of the art equipment that exists today, but they captured the soul of that music. And man, you know that's what's important. The music. Now I'm in no way saying that any dildo with a tape deck can get a great sounding recording that does the music justice. The guys like you behind the mixers are just as important as the guys behind the guitars. You're on a different level man. I've never heard a song posted to this BBS that would sound professional if they had just used a better compressor...or preamp, or whatever. It's usually the big (or basic) things like levels and panning and mic placement. You, on the other hand, can probably hear the subtle differences between the great stuff and the good stuff...but you've got to cut us some slack when we're using cheap gear cause we don't have your ear. I'd never recommend that a newbie guitar player go out and spend 2000 bucks on a Les Paul Custom because they won't appreciate the difference until they've been playing a while.

I appologize if I'm not making sense. My back took a shit on me today and I'm full of leftover new year's JD. My back still hurts but now it's funnier for some reason.

I really hate people who say "oh dear, why can't we all just get along?" But man, this is the absolute rudest that I've seen this board get since I've been around. So at least make a god damn effort. We got this Comp CD thing going and the last thing we need is people at each other's throats.

Come on guys. I love ya both. How 'bout a big hug? heh.

Slackmaster 2000
 
I'm thinking along the lines of:
Ed re-mixes one of S8-N's tunes provided as 16 tracks on CDR; S8-N retires on the eventual proceeds and buys Ed the 40ft shipping container full of goodies he's always wanted along with the tractor to putt it around the planet.
We get to be co-producers on the compilation.
 
Boy, this conversation is funny!A friend of mine once told me two great truisms. First, you can tell when someone says something true because other people get mad.
Second, there are three components to a project: quality, price, and speed. You only get two of them.
I'm going to go out on a limb, (possibly offending someone, though I won't even attempt to guess who,) and guess that most of those here are doing Rock N Roll, and haven't really heard competent mixdowns off a computer.
Another friend of mine is a dance music producer, who was working at a music supply store, and thus had access to all the latest software. What is the audible difference between his mixes and big studios? Negligible. The difference is time. It takes a long time to get a great mix with plug-ins. A competent engineer behind an SSL will do it faster, and maybe get better sounds through better settings. That's what you pay for. Hey, if I had the money, I'd do it that way for sure. But the bottom line is that if you run a studio quality mic direct into a hard-disk system, and never leave the digital realm, using the right stuff, the sound quality is now riduculously good. Lots of plug-ins suck, so you can't judge untill you've heard the best, but I would suspend judgement on software modelling until you hear the Lexicon-480 impulses for Sonic Foundry's Accoustic Modellor. For my money, the only outboard stuff I'll buy had better have tubes, as I have no use for anything digital that won't run on my computer, for less than $10000. Hope to join this fun-filled fracas.

Iain.
 
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