Project studio for home

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Johnny Blaze

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Alright, in my band we have three guitarists, all on acoustics, one of them sings. We also have a cello player, two violinists, a viola player, and an upright bass. I want to do a little project studio that would be capable of recording our stuff. SO here is a list of things I *think* I should get:

Digi002
2- Mackie HR824a
Focusrite TwinTrak Pro
Focusrite OctoPre
ProCo 20" 8x2 snake
Rode NT2000
Shure KSM32

Of course I will get mic stands and cables. And eventually more mics...but for now I have a lot of friends with the mics I want to use so I'll just borrow for a while. I want the OctoPre because I will need a lot of pre's...more than 8 that the 002 gives...since we don't use a drummer and everybody will have to be tracking together in separate rooms. Also because I almost never use just ONE mic on anything. I love to blend condensors and dynamics together....very good sound.

I figure that I could get a $10k loan from the bank and get this stuff pretty soon. Which is good because we have a ton of material and since I "know what I'm doing" everybody is on my ass to record it, lol. Yeah.

JBlaze
 
I know those pre's aren't "top-of-the-line" but I've been really impressed with the Focusrite pre's on my MBox, and eventually I will have some tube pre's, etc., but for now, something that just gets the job done and is transparent...such as the ones on the MBox. Mhmm.

JBlaze
 
Revised list:

Digi002
Mackie HR824a
Jade Audio 50' 24x4 snake
Shure KSM32 condensor
Rode NT2000 condensor
BLUE Dragonfly condensor
various ProCo, Hosa, and Monster mic cables
Neumann Pop Screens
various sized QuikLok booms
Gator G-Shock12L 12U shockmount rack
Focusrite TwinTrak Pro
Focusrite OctoPre w/ ADAT option
Hosa Fiber Optic Cable

Whew. Ok, anything that I should reconsider on this? I thought about just getting a Neumann TLM103 instead of the BLUE mic...but I dunno...kinda felt like I should experiment, since I know how a TLM sounds and all that. Yeah so throw in your two cents please, :P.

JBlaze
 
I think you have a pretty good set of gear there in your revised list except I would stay away from the Jade snake. With a decent set of mics and preamps you don't want your weak link to be a cheap snake. Get a decent ProCo or Whirlwind and you won't be sorry.

As far as your recording space goes, how do you set yourself up? You mentioned separate rooms, so does that mean acoustically designed rooms or just scattered rooms in the house? How about your mixing environment? Just curious, mostly. Your music sounds like fun to record and if you are willing to invest that amount of money in it you may find that the next step will be to discover that your rooms don't sound as good as your mics, or that your mixes sound great where you mix at but not anywhere else.

Anyway, good luck with it all. It would be great sometime to see some pictures of your setup in action :D

Cheers,
Darryl.....
 
Oh I didn't know the Jade snakes were like that. Then I guess I'll go with the ProCo one. It's basically an entire upstairs, bedroom, walk-in closet, then another room that is pretty big, like a living room or something. Where I will mix is in my bedroom, the walls are actually really cool, they are angled on both sides of the room....so it's good for mixing I think. I know all about listening to my mixes over and over again in different mediums to hear where I'm making mistakes and whatnot, so it will only take me a week or so to get use to my space and the monitors to where I know where to compensate for the acoustics in the room. I will definitely post some pics of everything once I get it all. Thanks.

JBlaze
 
Sounds cool. You might want to do some spot treatments in your rooms to break up any issues created by parallel walls. This is where the usual references to the SAE site or John Sayers site come in handy. However, for your acoustic music I would make some trial recordings first to see if the natural ambience of your rooms works for your instruments or hurts the tonal quality. Then it is just a matter of trying a few things to see what works (or get an expert opinion - I'm just a guy who reads too much :D ).

Good luck,
Darryl.....
 
Ok, so revised list based on people's input on this thread so far:

DigiDesign 002R
(2)ProCo 8-channel snakes (double fan style, no box)
(2)Mackie HR824a
Blue Baby Bottle bundle from Sweetwater (pop screen, shockmount, and case)
Blue Dragonfly
Shure KSM32
various ProCo, Hosa, and Blue mic cables
Shure PS-6 popper stopper, just one :P
QuickLok MI RS513 14U rolling rack (looks nice, a lot cheaper than the gator)
Furman PL-Plus Series II conditioner
Focusrite TwinkTrack Pro
Focusrite OctoPre w/ ADAT option
PreSonus HP4 4-channel headphone amp
(2)41" monitor stands (no name brand, center is fillable for sand etc.)

So yeah. The only thing, I'm still not sure about the compressors on the Focusrite TwinTrak. Especially after hearing their own demos on their site, they have a female vocal clip, and her quieter vocals are still really quiet compared to her full on voice. So I'm wondering how it would sound in a full mix, as on the clip it's just her so you can still make everything out. So far, with that setup listed (no mic stands yet, and some cables still not accounted for) it totals at $7,497.59. So I think I dropped it considerably by just opting for the 002R and getting two normal snakes. More suggestions please.

JBlaze
 
Also, I saw the Mackie HR824a's today and they are really big compared to my room size that I will using them in. I'm wondering if I should go for the 624's since they look a little more proportionate to my room. I only ask because I don't know if it makes a difference...that is, having a pair of huge monitors (compared to the space) in a room that seems too small. If it won't affect my mixes, then I'll stick with them. If it would be a better idea to get the smaller Mackies, then I'll do that, and save $$$ as well, hehe. Mhmm.

JBlaze
 
It definitely will affect your mixes - the 624s are VERY different from the 824s. Don't do it, stay with the 824s if you go that way.
 
Thanks, I got the same advice from some engineer friends of mine. Mhmm.

JBlaze
 
I'll second the recommendation to stick with the 824's. Also, for compression, I would recommend grabbing some FMR RNC's (Really Nice Compressor). They are under $200 apiece and have an incredible reputation. Of course, I don't recommend tracking with much compression personally since it limits your options during mixing, so if that is the way you will operate you are probably better off investing in some quality software plugins to add to your PTLE.

You might also want to get a couple of dynamic mics (think SM57 for example). You've got some nice condensers but there is always a use for a dynamic. I actally tracked an acoustic the other day with a 57 for the first time and was very pleased with the sound I got (one of those emergencies where it was the only thing available at the time and it didn't let me down).

Another thing to consider would be something like a UAD-1 or Powercore card for your computer that allows you to use the card for processing effects rather than the computer, which frees up computer resources during times where lots of effects and processing is occuring. I don't know how compatible these are with PTLE but both cards have ardent followers, so I don't think you can go wrong either way.

It sounds like you are in for a lot of fun. Can't wait to see some session pics!!

Darryl.....
 
I actually have two SM57's already, and my friend brought his Sennheiser e609 over, so I have some good dynamic mics. I have the Waves 4.0 Gold Pack and the Rennaissance plugs as well. Also a couple of McDSP's in the collection too. I never thought about getting a card that handled the plugs.

One of my thoughts is that once I get a 002, and start doing much bigger sessions, compared to the 2-4 tracks I normally do now, that my PC won't be able to handle it. So I will have about $3k of extra money after all the equipment, so I was thinking of a PowerMac G5 with dual 2.0gHz CPUs and 2gb of RAM. Because I *know* that will handle it, hehe. I can get one with the RAM for $2,900. SO? Anyway, yeah I will look into those cards, and I really only want a compressor for vocals and acoustic guitars, since we do A LOT of fingerpicking/arpeggios with picks, as well as a lot of strumming. And right now without any compressors I have to play a lot quieter when I strum and the other guitarist is pingerpicking or arpeggiating. I would like to use a rackmount compressor before the mic signal ever gets to the 002. Any ideas on a good 1-2 channel outboard rackmount coompressor (cheap :P)? Mhmm.

JBlaze
 
I just checked out the UAD-1, and I'm thinking that maybe if I get that, I won't have to get the Mac. See here's the problem, my PC is a Dell. Thats the one sole problem. It's a Dell XPS Gen2, 3.2gHz P4, 2gb of Ram, 80gb Seagate 10k RPM HD. And I don't know whats wrong that it can't handle more than 10 tracks on PTLE, with very simple EQ plug-ins. So I'm hoping that formatting it and having ONLY PTLE on it and the plug-ins. And if I format it, and then also get the UAD-1, that it will be fine. Hopefully. For some reason though when I try to format my PC, it loads all of the stuff on the CD, and then goes to a blank blue screen, except for two lines of text at the top that read something along the lines of "read error......system32/something.dll", so maybe somebody can help me with that? :P. Mhmm.

JBlaze
 
Just a couple of notes here.

First off, as fas as inexpensive compressors go you really should check out the FMR RNC's I mentioned before. You can get a rack kit to mount them in a rack (or just use a shelf). Another inexpensive option would be the Behringer Composer Pro (yeah, it's Behringer but this particular unit has a pretty good rep).

Now, as far as your PC goes, you really need to get a second hard drive. Use your existing drive to run Windows and your PTLE software, and store all your audio data files on the second drive. This will free up the drive performance and should allow you to get more usable performance out of your system. With your computer trying to do disk access for gigabytes of data simultaneously with runing a program you have a bottleneck with the disk read/write heads going nuts. A second drive will make the throughput much better.

As far as stripping down your overhead, I don't really know a simple suggestion for that. I finally procured a stand alone copy of Windows without all the stuff that a PC manufacturer usually bundles with it and just loaded what I needed (ie. operating system, hardware drivers, and studio software only). My AMD 2400 with 512M RAM is easily handling the mixing of up to 40 tracks with a fair amount of plugins active with Cubase.

Good luck,
Darryl.....
 
My overall thought is if you have material ready and engineer friends it would be a LOT cheaper to go into one of your engineer friend's studios. Once you have a loan for $10K and a bundle of gear,

and since I "know what I'm doing" everybody is on my ass to record it, lol. Yeah.
Click to expand...

then what happens if it takes you six months or a year to learn what you are doing? Are they that patient?

We are here on the studio board, where generally we talk about construction. You mentioned separate rooms for eight musicians. That is a strange combination of a very expensive and very unusual. Especially on string instruments you need SPACE for a decent sound. Yours is not the easiest group to record for a newbie recordist--you're going to need a big enough, good sounding room to get everybody playing live but also enough isolation to deal with the level problems you describe. You'll need enough mics to pull that off while capturing the stereo soundfield. If you do this track-at-a-time, I don't think you'll achieve the sound you expect, especially if you have troublesome reverbs from small rooms on some tracks but not others.

Then you mention that the 824s are big compared to your mixdown room. Huge red flag--you will need massive amounts of absorption to make that room serviceable for mixing. Trust me on this one, I've been there.

If you expect to be together with this group of people and make recordings together for the next three or five or ten years, then continue down the path of home studio ownership.

However if you need an album in a month or two, you are taking the wrong, wrong, wrong approach.
 
Too true : sometimes the project studio is just not the way to go. I know it sounds enticing, but it takes a huge effort to get it off the ground, and you are highly unlikely to get anywhere near the results you are looking for if you are not a seasoned engineer. You have to expect a learning curve, and that your first several efforts will not be up to scratch.

So, like MsHilarous says, if this is a one shot deal - do yourself a favour and rent a studio. If this is a long term goal, then by all means build your own, but expect to have to weather the learning curve.

Another option might be to rent a studio and act as the principal engineer yourself - that is, rent the *just* the facility. That way you can give it a shot on your own, and if you need to, you can fall back on the facility's engineer and avoid wasting a huge wad of cash.

My $0.02.
 
fraserhutch said:
Another option might be to rent a studio and act as the principal engineer yourself - that is, rent the *just* the facility. That way you can give it a shot on your own, and if you need to, you can fall back on the facility's engineer and avoid wasting a huge wad of cash.

My $0.02.
Click to expand...

Or bring in your engineer friends with their gear. There are cheaper ways to do this and maintain control.

The "X" factor you don't have and haven't listed is a good sounding room, and it's much cheaper to rent it than build it.
 
I'm not necessarily a newbie at engineering. I have spent probably 100's of hours assisting my friends at the studios they work at. And learned a TON along the way. As well as doing home recordings over the years, just recently though I've gotten more serious with it by getting the MBox, etc. , and now with me being able to afford to have a project studio at home for my own projects, it's just like icing on the cake for me....although I'd love to have a professional studio maybe working on commercial stuff, hehe. We don't need an album in a month or so, it's just that we are all such seasoned musicians that the first thing we want is a recording. That ties into the whole musician part of ideology (sp?), how where it sounds much different when it's been recorded and played back than it does when you are playing it live. I'm actually not a bad engineer I think, especially with the stuff that I have used in the past and the results that I've gotten. I can post some clips of my band that I have recorded using a POD 2.0 for a mic pre (LOL) for vocals and running a couple of SM57's through a Mackie 4 channel mixer, if you'd like. I really want a project studio simple for what its called....projects. I can ALWAYS go to a studio and have it recorded "professionally." Mhmm.

JBlaze
 
OK then I don't think your engineering skills are in doubt. And your gear list is fine, you seem to know what you want.

Again this is a board mainly about construction. Could you give us the dimensions of the rooms and what your budget is for treatment?
 
Oh I know it's mainly about construction, but I feel like the most..."experienced" people are on this forum, rather than the gear one. Mainly by judging from the equipment lists, pictures, etc. Basically, I will have about $2,300 left over if I don't get a Mac G5. But I was hoping to get a guitar with that, a very nice one. Not sure if anyone here knows what I am talking about but, a PRS Custom22. I am going to get a WindowsXP cd from my friend and try to format my computer with it, since apparently the ntdll.dll file on the reinstall cd from Dell is corrupt or just un-readable, and that makes it impossible to format. And I do have a WesternDigital 250GB 10k RPM drive in an external enclosure that I have partitioned for both PC and Mac (two separate partitions completely splitting it 50/50) which I only use for PT and use the FireWire400 connection. So I think it's just that my PC is bogged down from never being defragged or anything since I got it about 2 years ago almost. I will be ordering the 002R and stuff first, and once I am sure that my PC can handle the sessions, then I will concentrate on the guitar or acoustic treatments. If my PC can't handle it, then I have to use that $2,300 plus another $200 or so to get the Mac G5 which I will only use for ProTools.

I plan on getting a Hart Pro 6.4 electronic kit and a Roland TD-20 module and running the MIDI out from that module into PT through Drumkit From Hell Superior, I've heard and seen it done, and it's amazing for people that don't have the room for mic'ing up drums (room as in acoustical.) I would be mic'ing up their actual cymbals, and only using DFHs for the drums. I have seen and heard it done this way as well, very good results. Much better than the signature amateur sound you get from recording drums in an untreated room, and with the wrong mics, hah. Anyway, I will try to measure out my rooms tomorrow, for now, I must sleep. By the way, if I haven't already said it, I will now. Thanks to everybody who has posted on this thread, you have all been a major help, even if it was something you think was minor, it's helping me a LOT. I will have some numbers for you later. Mhmm.

JBlaze
 
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