Progression theory question

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Elmo89m

Elmo89m

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In diatonic progression it is always Imaj7/II-7/III-7/IVmaj7/Vdom7/VI-7/VIIdiminishied....

so my question is how can the chord you play in each degree be any different than this (expect for substitutions)...more simply why can people play a minor chord for the tonic? shouldn't it have to be major, major seventh or a subsitution for either of these?

Also in one of my theory books it says that their are only three harmonic functions: major,minor, dom seventh and the rest are substitutions of these. it also says the dom7 is dissonant and can only be played on the 5th degree. How can this be if the basic blues progression is I7/IV7/V7

thanks
 
Elmo89m said:
In diatonic progression it is always Imaj7/II-7/III-7/IVmaj7/Vdom7/VI-7/VIIdiminishied....

so my question is how can the chord you play in each degree be any different than this (expect for substitutions)...more simply why can people play a minor chord for the tonic? shouldn't it have to be major, major seventh or a subsitution for either of these?

Also in one of my theory books it says that their are only three harmonic functions: major,minor, dom seventh and the rest are substitutions of these. it also says the dom7 is dissonant and can only be played on the 5th degree. How can this be if the basic blues progression is I7/IV7/V7
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I think the author of that theory book was a sad, bitter, lonely old man ;)

The 7 is dissonant because it contains the tritone. It only occurs in the strict diatonic sense on the V, but feel free to use it wherever you like!
 
Music theory, like all theory, is based on a set of assumptions. When the assumptions change, the theory must change as well.

The author of your theory textbook is likely assuming adherence to the conventions of harmony that were common in 18th-century Europe. The balance between consonance and dissonance, and even the very notions of what constitutes dissonance, were quite different from those of today.

Learn the theory, but don't let it be a ball and chain. Use it as a springboard.

a.
 
It sounds you're applying 18th century harmony rules to modern or blues sensibilities. Good for you! but don't be too strict with them rules.
 
Elmo89m said:
In diatonic progression it is always Imaj7/II-7/III-7/IVmaj7/Vdom7/VI-7/VIIdiminishied....

so my question is how can the chord you play in each degree be any different than this (expect for substitutions)...more simply why can people play a minor chord for the tonic? shouldn't it have to be major, major seventh or a subsitution for either of these?

Also in one of my theory books it says that their are only three harmonic functions: major,minor, dom seventh and the rest are substitutions of these. it also says the dom7 is dissonant and can only be played on the 5th degree. How can this be if the basic blues progression is I7/IV7/V7

thanks
Click to expand...


The blues breaks these rules. Try not to think of theory as a law; it's a theory. Many people have broken musical boundaries such as, resolving on the tonic(I) eventually Mr. Plagal(spelling?) "patented" his half-cadence(ending on the IV)...

Remember about all these things that you're listing refer to the term 'diatonic' which means that all melodies and chords in the piece(your music example) are confined to the original 7 notes of the parent scale. That said, even a minor progression can be diatonic.

Songs that are centered around a minor chord or that have a tonal center that is minor are a different mode of the original parent scale. For instance:

C major(which is also the Ionian(root) mode)- C D E F G A B C

A progression that goes Am, C, G, F (and you could use more colorul substitutions; Am9[I love that], C, Gadd11, Fsus2{still diatonic}) is based on the A Aeolian mode which is C major starting on A: A B C D E F G A

Therefore, it would generally be in better taste to make melodies from this natural minor scale than to force a melody from C Ionian.

So, the blues is not diatonic(not perfectly diatonic). All I'm saying is try not to tell yourself that these are rules. Theory just accelerates the process of creating and performing. Once you learn the rules you can break them.



This is all my personal study though. I never went to school. I hope it helps.
 
I used to get real frustrated with this stuff. For instance, when a song was in a major key but had a flat 3rd or 7th. Or when a song was in a minor key but the tonic was played as a major chord or something like that. Stuff that didn't seem to "correct" from a music theory perspective.

One of the songs that helped me get past it was by the man in your avatar. The band I was in at the time was learning Mellowship Slinky in B Major. During the verse, John is doing that string-popping thing and plays an A on the second note! I just kept thinking "Hey... there's no A in B major!!" It was really frustrating. But what matters is how it sounds and sometimes the most interesting notes to play are the ones that are out of key. I read one of Frusciante's interviews where he makes that point and talks about his use of passing notes and other approaches to using out of key notes/chords.

Nowadays I don't worry about it. If it sounds good, it is good. I use theory to help guide my choices sometimes-- and theory does help me make sense of music. But it's not a rulebook that should be followed religiously.
 
Thanks...that wasnt the piece of theory that closed the gap and made me guitar god like it hope, but at least it stopped that from driving me crazy...remember to stop in to my next million guitar theory questions as well :D
 
Elmo89m said:
In diatonic progression it is always Imaj7/II-7/III-7/IVmaj7/Vdom7/VI-7/VIIdiminishied....

so my question is how can the chord you play in each degree be any different than this (expect for substitutions)...more simply why can people play a minor chord for the tonic? shouldn't it have to be major, major seventh or a subsitution for either of these?
Thanks
Click to expand...

Depends on the mode you are playing in.

The standard major scale (Ionian Scale) is formulated W W H W W W H where W= Whole Step and H = Half Step.

The relative minor key to C is A minor (Aeolian)
the A scale in the Aeolian mode is: A B C D E F G A. In any mode mode the diatonic chords are built with respect to the key signature in which they occur:


A C E G = Am7 - VIm7
B D F A = Bdim - VIIdim
C E G B = CM7 - IM7
D F A C = Dm7 - IIm7
E G B D= E7 - III7
F A C E= FM7 - IV M7
G B D F= G7 - Vdom7



Were you to play in the Phrygian mode, the scale that mode is based on would be formed thusly: H W W W H W W.

The Phrygian scale would be spelled E F G A B C D E. In any mode mode the diatonic chords are built with respect to the key signature in which they occur:

E G B D= E7 - III7
F A C E= FM7 - IV M7
G B D F= G7 - Vdom7
A C E G = Am7 - VIm7
B D F A = Bdim - VIIdim
C E G B = CM7 - IM7
D F A C = Dm7 - IIm7


In an nutshell:

The key signature determines the sharps and flats.

The key is the scale based on the key signature.

The mode is the diatonic chord progression within the context of the key.

I know it sounds confusing. Now I'm confused adn I'm writing it. :confused:

There is a lot more detail here
 
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