PreSonus converters to replace Delta66?

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Starstreams

Starstreams

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Hi,
Is it worth moving from a Delta 66 to one of PreSonus’s recording solutions?
http://www.presonus.com/firestudio.html
Worth it as in, do the PreSonus converters have better algorithms for producing more accurate sounds while being transparent?

I’m asking anyone who has actually compared the two?
The guys at Guitar Center say they are better in these respects, but I thought I would get other opinions. Sales man can not be trusted all the time.

Thanks!
 
I haven't compared the two but one key differences between them is that the Presonus boxes have a gain stage before the ADC, allowing you to more easily get an optimum level before conversion. The M-Audio one has a DSP-based input gain after the ADC.
 
Interesting, how doses that work if you don't mind me asking?
Doses this pre gain make it easer to get a hotter level? Currently I’m using the Omni/IO breakout box which has the gain on the front. I adjust the gain level and watch the meters in Logic Audio.
Is what you’re referring to more for bouncing down or mastering?
Sorry for my lack of knowledge on this

The other thing I was concerned about is, for example when you buy high end stuff like Apogee, it’s my understanding that good converters become more important as you increase the number of tracks, if the converters are not good, they begin to loose accuracy dealing with all the multiple frequencies.
I saw 24 bit depth in the specs but it didn’t say anything about the internal bitdepth. The M-Audios are 32-bit, the better converters seem to be at 46-bit and up, but then again I know thats not always as important as other things.
I’m not to sure what to make of the Jitter spects? Are these good?
Jitter-<20ps RMS, 20Hz-20kHz
Jitter Attenuation >60dB, 1ns in+1ps out
 
Starstreams said:
Interesting, how doses that work if you don't mind me asking?
Doses this pre gain make it easer to get a hotter level? Currently I’m using the Omni/IO breakout box which has the gain on the front. I adjust the gain level and watch the meters in Logic Audio.
Is what you’re referring to more for bouncing down or mastering?
Sorry for my lack of knowledge on this

Maybe I'm not right about the Delta 66 - does it have its own preamps or does it just boost the level using software? From the descriptions I've seen it looks like the latter but I could be way off.

Basically it works the way you're describing: each channel has a knob that controls the gain for each of the input preamps, which are quiet on their own. It allows you to get a much higher signal-to-noise ratio than an interface (like an Audigy 2 or an Audiophile) that converts the sound to digital and then amplifies it using DSP operations.

The other thing I was concerned about is, for example when you buy high end stuff like Apogee, it’s my understanding that good converters become more important as you increase the number of tracks, if the converters are not good, they begin to loose accuracy dealing with all the multiple frequencies.

Hmm. That would more properly be a function of your host's summing algorithm and not of the AD/DA convertors. I can see where potentially a nicer DAC could make your monitoring better because of more accurate frequency response, but the real combining of sounds together in the sequencer doesn't technically make its way through the convertors at all...

I saw 24 bit depth in the specs but it didn’t say anything about the internal bitdepth. The M-Audios are 32-bit, the better converters seem to be at 46-bit and up, but then again I know thats not always as important as other things.

The I/O max is 24 bit. As far as I know, there aren't any convertors out that that actually record at higher than that - different sequencers support different internal bitrates for processing ( e.g. Live, CEPro, etc. use 32-bit, Tracktion uses 64-bit...)

I’m not to sure what to make of the Jitter spects? Are these good?
Jitter-<20ps RMS, 20Hz-20kHz
Jitter Attenuation >60dB, 1ns in+1ps out

The jitter stiff is above my head. It refers to clock signal. If you start worrying about jitter (if your recordings are at that high a level) then typically you'd want to use the most stable clock as a master and all the rest of your digital gear as slaves. You can buy master clock units that provide jitter-free clock to multiple units and it's supposed to make a big difference, but my own opinion is that until you're using really nice monitors and preamps and have treated your control room and all that, it doesn't make that much sense to spend $1400 on a word clock.

As with all things of this nature, you really need to examine what your exact needs are and then see where your dollar goes furthest. I got the firepod because I want to be able to record 8 microphones simultaneously - I record bands and choirs and I needed that feature; the Delta 66 doesn't have it, but the firepod does. For your purposes, it might make more sense to upgrade something else with the $400 you'd save getting a Delta 66 - what are you aiming at doing with the multiple inputs?
 
StackableMusic said:
Hmm. That would more properly be a function of your host's summing algorithm and not of the AD/DA convertors. I can see where potentially a nicer DAC could make your monitoring better because of more accurate frequency response, but the real combining of sounds together in the sequencer doesn't technically make its way through the convertors at all...

That’s not really what I meant, but it’s kind of over my head to even explain. What I meant was: it was explained to me by a recording engineer that poor quality converters really begin to suffer when you start recording large numbers of tracks because the algorithms (or what ever he explained) can’t reproduce the samples accurately. I know that the clocks have a lot to do with the rounding errors but anyway, this is beyond me so I’ll skip it.

StackableMusic said:
what are you aiming at doing with the multiple inputs?
The inputs and outputs are fine on all these, although I really wish some of these had more S/PDIF jacks since they are so quiet, much cleaner then even XLR.
In anycase, I’m kind of looking for the best of all worlds in the price range of $800 to $1000. Better converters, Less Jitter and transparently, good Pre amps, and plenty of In/Outs of all flavors.

In refrence to what you asked me about the Omni Studio:
The Delta Omni Studio breakout box doses have pre amps, and is a separate unit from the card. There are two TRS 66dB gain Mic/Instroment inputs using M-Audios DMP2 pre amp technology, what ever that means. The actual delta66 PCI card runs at a 0db line level by itself if I’m correct.
http://www.shreveaudio.com/maudio/omnistudio.jpg

by the way, after speaking with a few other people at guitar center, they are telling me that the <B>Motu Traveler</B> or any Motu things have much better converters then even the PreSonus. is this so?
http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/traveler/overview.html

but I don’t know how the word clocks compare?
 
In refrence to what you asked me about the Omni Studio:
The Delta Omni Studio breakout box doses have pre amps, and is a separate unit from the card. There are two TRS 66dB gain Mic/Instroment inputs using M-Audios DMP2 pre amp technology, what ever that means. The actual delta66 PCI card runs at a 0db line level by itself if I’m correct.
http://www.shreveaudio.com/maudio/omnistudio.jpg

Okay, than that does differ from what I thought it had. I don't have any experience with that card so I shouldn't speculate on whether the preamps/convertors sound better than the Presonus.

by the way, after speaking with a few other people at guitar center, they are telling me that the <B>Motu Traveler</B> or any Motu things have much better converters then even the PreSonus. is this so?
http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/traveler/overview.html

but I don’t know how the word clocks compare?

If you've got the cash I would go with the MOTU - they are supposed to be very, very good, and unlike the Presonuses I've never heard anyone complain about a MOTU box. If you don't *need* the XLR inputs of a Firepod then the 828mkII or the Traveller are a better solution in my opinion. I know for sure that they have greater flexibility in signal routing: my Firepod has all its inputs summed to mono and that's the only way you can listen to them unless you route them through a sequencer, which is a glaring omission.
 
After extensive reading and talking about this, I’m saving my money and looking at either Apogee, Lynx Auroa, or possibly a CranSong 192 HEDD or even Lavry. On the other hand, the RME fireface has great AD converters, but the DA conversion is questionable from what I've heard. Thats not a problem either as I can use a different AD unit box via ADAT outs. The windows and mac driver support is said to be about the best
First however I’m going to concente on getting some Pre amps as I have none and they seem to provide the greater return. I already have mics so that step is partly solved.

Eeny, meeny, miny, moe
 
Don't use the Moe converters, there's a subtle but discernable knuck knuck knuck sound to them.

Starstreams, it sounds like you're on the right track (no pun intended) by thinking about preamps first. I have a couple of Delta series interfaces, including the 66, and I have a Lynx card. The Lynx is a step above, but it's far from night and day to the average HR set of ears and monitoring environment, and I think the Delta series converters stand up quite well. This should not be confused with Omni studio, which couples the converters with OK, but not particularly impressive preamps. A Delta 66 fed by a nice mic and a nice preamp will sound very good indeed.
Most would agree that on the front end, the biggest sonic bang for the upgrade buck goes in descending order from mic to preamp to converters. Great sound happens when all three are great, but it probably makes sense to work downstream if you're upgrading one at a time.
 
Thanks Robert D.
These forums are very helpful!

btw Robert, do you know if anyone makes S/PDIF PCI and PCIe cards if you need to bring in S/PDIF into your PC?
 
yes, I'm using it for my reverb unit.
But I'm talking about if I were to get a Lynx Aura. I think thier cabls have it though now that I've looked over thier stuff.
 
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