preamp with a Korg D16?

T

tim_oreilly

New member
Hi,
I use a Korg D-16 which has preamps built-in...I understand that these are by definition not going to be as good as a good outboard tube pre...but here's my question...is a Joe Meek or an ART or a low-end tube preamp really going to be that much of an improvement vs. what I've got?

Here's a really stupid question on top of that: is it a safe assumption that given that I already have onboard preamps, the only reason I would want to add a preamp would be for "tube coloration" of the tone, no?

Sorry for the stupid questions - would appreciate any feedback

Tim
 
1) Yes. The preamps that come standard with most multitrack recorders are usually going to be of very low quality.

Level of improvement? Joemeek=drastically. Art or similar low-end tube pre=still an improvement.

2) No. Multitrack recorders' preamps just plain suck, in most cases, and that is why you are using an outboard pre. You won't notice it while tracking, but come mixdown, you will listen and wonder why your final mix sounds so "thin."

In some cases (but not in all), a tube pre can be useful in adding some warmth. In my opinion, even some low-end tube pres can make a difference on the tone of a bass guitar or synth.

Most of the "tube talk" is simply marketing hype, though, so beware (ie - Buy our product. It has tubes. Tubes are cool, and our product has them, so buy it and you can be cool, too). Take it all with a grain of salt.
 
Thanks for the reply! Very helpful

In terms of my second question, then, is it fair to say that what an outboard preamp would give me vs. the built-in preamp is simply better tone, solid state or tube?

And here's another question: are there any solid-state preamps that are in the price range of a Joe Meek or ART that are good quality?

I would definitely believe that the best tube pre-amp would blow away the best solid state preamp (that's certainly my experience with guitar amps)...but I wonder if at the low end a solid state pre might give you more bang for the buck? Or is this heresy...

thanks again!
Tim
 
Outboard pres will give you better clarity and definition, less noise, and superior fidelity to those that come with a typical multitrack recorder.

You are right about the pricing points on solid state vs. tube pres. Tube pres tend to be much more expensive than their solid state couterparts, making it difficult to get quality on a limited budget.

As far as cheap tube pres go, I have heard good things about dbx's silver series (386, 586, etc.). These will start out at around $400 on up.

Will the best tube pre blow away the best solid state? It all depends on what kind of tone you're looking for. Some people don't want the added color the tube imparts, and prefer the clean, crisp (and quiet) sound of solid state circuitry (especially for things like accoustic guitar, for example).

Remember, tubes almost always add noise. More noise=less signal=less resolution. There's a tradeoff in the lower price point.

As far as solid-states go, the m-audio dmp3 is about the best thing out there for $200. Very clean and transparent. For a more colored sound, the Joemeek is an absolute steal (vc3q, if you can find one, will go for around $100).

The next step up would be a Grace design (solid state) or Peavey VMP2 (tube), in the $600-$800 range.
 
Wow, this is awesome. Thanks for all the rec's.

Unfortunately, I know more now than I did when I started, but I'm still just as confused.

On this thread, Empty Planet recommends that if you can't do it right, don't do it at all, because using the same cheap preamp on all the tracks will cause as many problems as not having them at all.

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=42812&highlight=preamp

Is that true?

2 other dumb questions:

1) the biggest problem i'm going to run into is recording my drummer...i'd like to use up to 8 mics...so should i use a preamp only on certain tracks? would a mackie 1202-vlz give me the best bang for the buck for that application?

2) i have access to a drawmer 1960 preamp/compressor...is this a good unit? what is it good for, maybe vocals?

Thanks!
 
Empty Planet makes some good points that are worth considering. It's a debate that will probably rage on for quite some time. I can only speak from my experience, and in my opinion, my recordings have improved dramatically when I switched from my multitrack recorders' pres to outboard ones.

The problems EP is refering to would be the accumulation of noise or any other "cheap" coloration as you track with the same pre on multiple tracks. Winds up giving the whole mix a thinner, cheaper sound, as the negative artifacts a bad pre imparts acccumulates over the various tracks.

Like anything, though, mileage may vary. The M-audios I've used have been very transparent sounding, imho. As transparent as, say, a Grace 101? Probably not. But this I could at least see being used on multiple tracks without fear of this "bad" accumulation. Will it have any "special magic?" Probably not, but it will at least let a good performance speak for itself.

The idea, though, is not to give every track the exact same texture. Mix it up. I like a driven, fuzzy sound on my bass tracks, so the Tube MP works fine for that. For electric guitar, I like the aggressive presence of the Joemeek. For accoustic guitar, the transparency of the M-audio or my Mackies (although these can, at times, be a bit harsh) would be more ideal.

If I could afford it, I would probably like the transparency of the Grace or a higher-end Focusrite even better :)

On to your other questions:

1) 8 mics on drums sounds a like overkill. Do a search on micing drums, and you'll likely find a lot of info. on more minimalistic methods that will be much easier and likely sound better.

Yes, the 1202 VLZ will probably give you the best bang-for-buck, and it is VERY commonly used (myself included) for this application. And luckily, it just happens to sound pretty good on percussion. And you can get away with 4 mics (2 for stereo overhead, 1 bassdrum, 1 snare). I generally use 5 with my Joemeek on the bass drum (as it has exceptional bass response).

2) I have heard numerous GREAT comments on the Drawmer. The pre is good, and the compressor and limiter are supposed to be excellent. And it will probably be good with just about anything you throw at it. I've never used it, though, so take it with a grain of salt.

Anyone else is welcome to chime in any time, now.

Lurkers?
 
Chessrock, you are the man...thanks for being so patient with my newbie questions and for hooking me up w/ great info!

What you say makes a lot of sense to me - I noticed that mixing up mics between guitar takes vastly improved my guitar sound - so I can see how using the same pre on every track could give you a very one-dimensional sound.

I'm going to take a crack at the drawmer with some vocals this weekend. Thanks again for the help!
 
I was in your exact shoes not too long ago. Then I started asking every dumb question I could ask anyone. Dumb questions on the BBs, dumb questions to the Guitar Center Salesman. Dumb questions to the sound man at the local club (Double Door for anyone familiar with Chicago).

Met an engineer for Chicago Recording Studio at a party, and drilled him for info. on Pro Tools for a good portion of the party. I even cornered the touring sound guy for, who was it? . . . Sixpence None the Richer, I believe, at a bar. And you know what I did? Yup, I annoyed the shit out of him asking him stupid questions about live micing. :) One of my friends is a protoge for Blaze Barton (produced a lot of Liz Phair's material), and he pretty much runs away in fear of my stupid questions every time he sees me, now.
 
Well, I'd better change my handle so that way you don't go running anytime I show up !

I've done some searching on a Korg D-16 group on Yahoo and people seem to really like the DBX-386 because it has a digital out and apparently this is a great setup with the D-16 because not only are a) the preamps FAR better than the Korg preamps, but b) going digital into the KORG is the only way to completely BYPASS the crap preamps in the Korg, and c) the A/D converter in the DBX unit is better than that in the Korg. A few people seem to rave about the sounds they are getting this way.

That seems like an awfully useful set up to me. I'm going to do some more investigating, but I think with that unit and the Drawmer that is available for use in the space, that this should be a good start.

Thanks again!

Tim
 
Shoot...I forgot to ask one very stupid question...

With a Mackie, can you ONLY go stereo out? Or is there way to use all four preamps and go directly out from each channel to record them on a seperate track? It appears to me that this is not possible, unless you can go out from the effects send? I can't tell whether the effects loop comes before or after the preamp...

Thanks again!
 
Mackie 4 in 4 out

Yes...there are 2 ways to run 4 outs from the mackie, neither involving the aux sends though.

You can either use the 4 direct channel outs, or use the main left and right and the aux left and right in combination.

The direct channel outs can be normalled for bypassing eq and gain stages and going directly to tape, or half-normalled for including eq and gain. This is accomplished by inserting jacks either fully (normalled) or halfway (half normalled) into the direct out jacks in the back of the mixer.

The other option is to use the main outs left and right for tracks one and two, panned hard left and right. The mackies also have a feature where the mute buttons on each channel will send that channel to a second bus (aux 3,4) IF you have something connected. So you would 'mute / alt 3/4' your tracks 3 and 4 and pan those hard left and right to send them out to 3 and 4.

I prefer using the direct outs since I don't need to deal with the panning issues, but the two busses are nice when you are trying to work in stereo...submixing drums, etc...

I use the mackie 1202 as a front end for both a tascam 4 track (424mkIII) and for a delta 44 card, and the bussing and routing works great for each. It's a good fit with a pc because you can use the mixer for inputs / preamps as well as for monitoring because of the control room out features.

There is no doubt that the mackie's pres are a definite step up from the onboard tascam pres on the 4 track, which are fairly quiet and are XLR to begin with. Perhaps the most noticeable was with an AKG D112, the mackie captured much more low end...with the same mic into the same recorder it was like night and day. The tascam sounded kind of cardboard tubby where the mackie had definite ass.

I also have a presonus tube 2 channel pre, and would have to say that it is much muddier, but in a pleasing way on guitars, bass and synth. It is interesting on cymbals and overheads, but not always the right sound. Our group does not have many vocals so I can't really make a comparison there. I actually use it the majority of the time to warm up the sound of my analog modelling synth....so it's basically a glorified 2 channel pedal with balanced i/o.
 
direct outs?

HUH? A Mackie 1202 doesn't have direct outs...as far as I know.
Maybe you ment the inserts?
Anyway Tim, you could also consider buying a couple of M-Audio Audiobuddies ($79). The Audiobuddy is a 2-channel mic pre-amp, which can provide phantom power. They are said to be much more silent than the pre's on the Korg D16. I have a D16 myself too, and yes, I find its pre's a bit noisy when you're driving them way up.
I'm gonna buy a decent channelstrip this summer (can't decide between Presonus VXP, Joemeek VC1Qcs and Drawmer MX60) and maybe I put in an extra Audiobuddy for my 2 dynamic mics.

cheerz
 
Hey Tim,

It sounds to me like this would be an excellent idea. I never thought of it before, but it makes total sense -- the dbx would make an ideal front end to a portable multitrack recorder. In fact, I think it's better than just a "good start." That's a setup that would probably take you a long time to outgrow.

The a/d conversion supposedly "can't be clipped," which would be very convenient for digital recording, giving you an extra safeguard. When you're ready to step up to a more expensive pre, you could probably bypass the preamp and still use the dbx as your a/d converter.

I'm pretty sure the Korg will only have one stereo digital input. So I'm afraid you won't be able to record more than two tracks at a time that way. You could use the mackie board to first record a good drum mix to stereo on the Korg. Then you can overdub up to two instruments at a time on top of the drums.

I used to do it that way all the time, as my multitrack recorder couldn't record any more than 2 tracks at a time. And I didn't have the benefit of the digital ins either, so it all kind of sounded like shit, too. :)
 
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