preamp hierarchy....(please only intelligent answers)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Elmo89m
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Elmo89m said:
which is better though vtb1 or the DMP3?
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I own both. They're pretty different but the VTB-1 is more versatile because of the toob blend thing (which for a budget pre is pretty useable). Then of course the DMP-3 has two channels. I wouldn't say one of the two is 'better' soundwise, just different.
 
A thread about "preamp hierarchy" becomes just another thread about DMP3s.

<shakes head>
 
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c7sus said:
A thread about "preamp hierarchy" becomes just another thread about DMP3s.
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And Syteks ... and Mackies ... and Sebatron, A&H ... when will it end ??
 
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chessrock said:
And Syteks ... and Mackies ... and Sebatron, A&H ... when will it end ??
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I know. But when you get into that price range and still want some quality, there really aren't a whole lot of choices for dedicated outboard preamps. That is, when you are talking about buying new.

You could get into DIY preamps, or modding/upgrading cheap preamps, or buying vintage mixing boards for their preamps. If you get into that, then there are *tons* of possibilities.

Okay, so let's throw in a few other names for new preamps: Rane MS-1b, Grace 101, Aphex 207. If it were up to me, I'd take any of those over the VTB-1 or DMP3.
 
all right ill ask one final question then im done....is the mackie onyx's qualtiy per channel almost as good as like sytek? the mackie with its eigth inputs is starting to look like my best option
 
urrr....after just getting done reading the entry level preamp poll thread in the microphone section im getting second thoughts about even getting new preamps....its starting to sound liek the pre's im looking at wont give me that muc hof an improvement over my pr8....if some one can persuade me otherwise i would appreciate it.
 
Would you please link us to that poll? I'm just curious as to what was said.

The real issue here is that you are unsatisfied with your current preamps. If that is the case, then you do need to upgrade. The thing about upgrading is that when doing so you really need to go up a few notches. You see alot of people posting about gear comparisons for upgrading and what they are really doing is "side-grading".

Moving around in the same price bracket is generally a side grade. As is going up a few dollars. If you want clear, noticable improvement, you have to go up a few notches.

Frankly, any of the units I've mentioned would be an improvement over what you are currently using. Sytek, Mackie 800r, Grace 101, Rane MS-1b, Aphex 207. I'd like to read that poll to see what they are saying, but some of those people might be full of it.

Ultimately, you need to take your mic out to a store and try out various preamps with it. Or, buy from a place that will let you do returns. So you'd pick up an 800r (for example) and try it out. If it's an improvement you keep it, and if it isn't you send it back and get something else.
 
Okay, I read a little of that thread and it's really *scary*. :-)

Based on what you are saying in this thread, I don't think you want any of the gear being polled in that thread.

I believe you are doing the right thing by saving up for a while and getting out of the bargain basement gear and into something better. You'll be a lot more satisfied in the long term with what your music sounds like.
 
SonicAlbert said:
Okay, so let's throw in a few other names for new preamps: Rane MS-1b, Grace 101, Aphex 207. If it were up to me, I'd take any of those over the VTB-1 or DMP3.
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I probably would, too.

With some of the newer instrument amps, particularly the TI/burr-browns, it's not like you can't get decent gain for your mic inexpensively. Put in proper context, the Sytek is only 200 bucks per channel. That's less than half of the Grace Design.

Basically the same pres in the Soundcraft Ghost can be had in some of the smaller and less expensive Soundcraft mixers.

If given the choice, it's always a good idea to track with the best stuff you can get your hands on ... but it's not like the compromises are severe if you have to settle for the next step down. I wouldn't mourn the loss for more than a few seconds before I moved on.

I think this board in general -- and many others like it -- put far too much stock in just what a mic pre is going to do for your recording quality. It's downright laughable, at times, for me to read about some guy using M-audio monitors in his bedroom looking to buy Brent Averil-racked API's and the like. People need to put things in more accurate perspective. By far the biggest jump in quality will occur when you switch from the internal mic pres on your recorder to basically any set of dedicated outboard pres that aren't built in to your recorder or sound card. :D

After that, you're just shelling out exponentially larger amounts of money for very small increments of improvement.

Meanwhile, vast chasms of improvement await those with the ingenuity and resources to improve their room accoustics ... upgrade their instruments and amplifiers, change their strings, practice and train their ears. I swear, if you track in your basement, you'll probably hear a much greater improvement in your mixes if you purchase a dehumidifier. This is the kind of perspective that is sorely missing.
 
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chessrock said:
I think this board in general -- and many others like it -- put far too much stock in just what a mic pre is going to do for your recording quality. It's downright laughable, at times, for me to read about some guy using M-audio monitors in his bedroom looking to buy Brent Averil-racked API's and the like. People need to put things in more accurate perspective. By far the biggest jump in quality will occur when you switch from the internal mic pres on your recorder to basically any set of dedicated outboard pres that aren't built in to your recorder or sound card. :D

After that, you're just shelling out exponentially larger amounts of money for very small increments of improvement.
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I agree in general with your whole post, but I have heard a much greater improvement than a small increment when comparing budget preamps to much more expensive units. I have done A/B comparisons between my Grace 201 and various mixer onboard preamps, as well as budget standalone units. The difference is not subtle or incremental. The difference is slap-you-in-the-face and kick-you-in-the-nuts obvious. Sorry for the vulgarity, but I'm just trying to get this across in words!

So as far as the guy with the budget monitors going for a top of the line preamp, that can be silly or wise, depending on what he is doing and where he is taking his studio. You have to start somwhere, in other words. So if the preamp is the first step in an overall studio upgrade, then it makes sense to shoot for the moon. Then follow it up with some better mics, better converters, improved monitoring, etc., etc., etc.

Warning, the following statement will considered heresy by many (and maybe it is):

If you are near field monitoring, and I mean truly using nearfields and listening nearfield, the room is of far less importance than if you are monitoring mid or far field. With true near field monitoring there is much less room interaction than with mid and far field. You of course need to be careful you don't have bass cancellations/buildups and be careful about reflections, take normal care with such things. But to go neurotic about room treatments with near field monitoring seems overkill.

So to me, it seems like upgrading gear for the front end is an appropriate use of money for small home studios using near field monitors.

I'm going to put on my hard hat now, and my flame-retardant suit.
 
Its not like im using windows sound recorder and radioshack mics....i took a step back and looked at my setup for awhile and realized that my big problem was my preamps..ive got decent mics(sm57's) a good sequencer (sonar 2xl) and a decent interface(delta 1010lt) and i realized that my 11 dollar per channel preamp was a major weekness...im not expecting to have a 10,000 dollar improvement..as i said earlier im uprgrading piece by piece and this is what i feel to be my weakspot,..and i do have a fairly good place to record (carpeted basement for drums, and a capreted closet with mattresses lining the walls for my amp...its not great but it works)...thanks for your insight chessrock...i respect it but ive been thinking for awhile and the preamp i have has got to go...but thanx for your input
 
Elmo89m said:
..ive got decent mics(sm57's) a good sequencer (sonar 2xl) and a decent interface(delta 1010lt) and i realized that my 11 dollar per channel preamp was a major weekness...im not expecting to have a 10,000 dollar improvement..as i said earlier im uprgrading piece by piece and this is what i feel to be my weakspot,..
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Like I mentioned in my post ... the biggest improvement you'll hear is when you get beyond the pres built in to your recorder, etc. The $11 / channel ones you have now are pretty much in that same camp. :D

I think if you get yourself a decent mixer right now (ala Soundcraft), you'll still have use for it when you eventually upgrade. You'll still have the extra channels when you need them, you can use it as a headphone mixer, etc.
 
SonicAlbert said:
I agree in general with your whole post, but I have heard a much greater improvement than a small increment when comparing budget preamps to much more expensive units. I have done A/B comparisons between my Grace 201 and various mixer onboard preamps, as well as budget standalone units. The difference is not subtle or incremental. The difference is slap-you-in-the-face and kick-you-in-the-nuts obvious. Sorry for the vulgarity, but I'm just trying to get this across in words!
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I'm not doubting what you say in the least. I just find it interesting, because I've been in attendance at some serious preamp listening sessions with sizeable group of people ... and a lot of us had difficulties discerning the subtle nuances. A few of them stood out, sure, like the API's (nice on snare) and the UAs and DW Fearns (a little mellower on overheads). And if you listened closely, you can pick out some characteristics associated with the transformer-based and the transformerless, etc.

But after a while, it becomes obvious that a lot of this is splitting hairs. And it's always surprizing to hear how well the less-expensive ones hold up. I mean you can plug in a Symetrix 201 or an Aphex 107 and it's not like anyone suddenly frowns and says: "I couldnt' track with that." It's just back to splitting more hairs.

I also track with fairly modest pres in my personal studio ... yet on occasion I'll track with some really high end stuff (either I'll rent the equipment or the client will rent a nicer studio). And it still boils down to the same stuff. Spending a lot of time ensuring that the sound is happenin' at the source. And I find myself not really even thinking about the fact that I'm tracking to APIs and Neves. Yippee! The guy's snare still sounds crappy and the amp is fizzy ... so it's back to working with the source. I got a chance to enjoy plugging in to Neves for maybe 30 seconds, tops, before reality kicked back in and I have to go futz with the snare and twiddle the knobs on the amp while everyone stares at me, impatiently.
 
I think we are basically agreeing. The API's, UA's, Fearn, etc. are all in the same basic price/quality category. When A/B'ing similarily priced units, my experience has also been that comparisons are pretty close. However, when I A/B'ed a Presonus TubePRE against my Grace 201, the difference was not subtle at all. The Grace against a Neve or Millenia or other similar unit becomes a "taste" thing again.

The Symetrix and Aphex I can see being useful, if not having quite the fine points of the higher priced units. Part of that is that the effect of preamp/mics is cumulative in my opinion. Comparisons are tougher track by track, but when you put them all together the differences can be more obvious.

Also, Symetrix and Aphex make some pretty great gear in their higher lines. I may be wrong, but I always feel it's better to buy lower end gear from a company that makes high end gear. There are exceptions to that, like FMR. My thinking is that at least some of the expertise of the engineers and design/build quality that goes into the higher end units will migrate to the lower units, at least to a certain extent.
 
SonicAlbert said:
when I A/B'ed a Presonus TubePRE against my Grace 201, the difference was not subtle at all.
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Yea, but the Presonus stuff pretty much sucks, and isn't at all representative of the mostly decent stuff on the prosumer market.

I may be wrong, but I always feel it's better to buy lower end gear from a company that makes high end gear. There are exceptions to that, like FMR. My thinking is that at least some of the expertise of the engineers and design/build quality that goes into the higher end units will migrate to the lower units, at least to a certain extent.
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In the case of a company like Groove Tubes, I can see where that may have some merit. But that can also work the other way around, where a company may just be putting their name on something and then way overcharging for it, figuring it will still sell based on their name recognition alone.
 
When I A/B my Great River and Mackie 1202 (also Presonus/Behringer/Tascam) pre's using various mic's, the difference is sometimes huge, sometimes subtle depending on the mic. Most of my hotter output condensers fall into the subtle category.

But even the subtle differences become more noticeable to me with repeated listening, and especially when I do any processing on the file. I often use a little EQ, multiband compression and reverb on my guitar tracks, and each thing I do, processing-wise, tends to build on the initial good qualities of the track. So if the Great River added just 10-20% in quality to a mic pair when tracking, it gets magnified later to my ear when I touch up w/EQ, and the reverb spreads the sound out more.

As far as the mic's I've used that show a big difference between the pre's... Dynamics like the SM57 or EV635a sound pretty crappy to me through anything I've got other than the Great River. My M160 ribbon needs so much gain that the GR is the only useable option for me without lots of added noise. There may be inexpensive pre's around that can do that but I'm not aware of them.

To get that 10-20% improvement in sound quality, and to be able to use my ribbon mic, it's worth it to me to have invested in the better preamp.

Tim
 
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alright..thanks......i think im leanin towards the onyx now..though i suppose if anyone has anybetter ideas for the at least 6 channels for around 1,000 dollars id be glad to hear um...thanks a lot sonic and chess.,....bah after all this help its still a toss up.....if the sytek is much better than the onyx maybe i should get that and a dmp3? I guess ill just say this....if you were in my situation sonic or chess or anyone i suppose what pre's (i need at least six) would you get for between 700-1100 dollars....thanx this should finish off my unrelenting string of questions
 
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