Preamp for recording Beatles type music

[LazerBeakShiek]

That is a fallacious statement known as a straw man. The claim isn't that one amp will sound objectively better than others of the same model, it's that they will not be identical. If Neil Young likes two better than the others, that's a subjective preference to which he's entitled.

So he picked 2 he liked. They did not say or give example of the differences. Dud they?

A Sm58 mic will sound like another Sm58. Don't gimme a bunch of crap that on some microscopic level there is a tolerance difference.

That tolerance is the spec that partly makes the sounds' character. Every part of the circuit has a rating and will adhere closely to it. A SM 58 will go 50-15000. Yours or mine.

 

[ecc83]

That is a fallacious statement known as a straw man. The claim isn't that one amp will sound objectively better than others of the same model, it's that they will not be identical. If Neil Young likes two better than the others, that's a subjective preference to which he's entitled.

Quite. My boss could pick out differences and preferences between amps that I could not (but then I was 59 and a bit deaf!) . Invariably his judgement was spot on and the difference found with a scope and Levell mV meter.

His was also the last word on the voicing of amps and there was good percentage of people on forums that did NOT like his choice of 'house sound'. But not all! So, people hear different qualities in the SAME amplifier and have their likes and dislikes.

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

Please provide a cel phone quality video to illustrate your point.

If you can't hear the subtle nuances and differences in real world...do you really think you will hear them from cell phone video quality?

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

Dave is going to continue the childish notion that his DRRI is better than my DRRI. Fine. Whatever.

That is not a mature solution.

 

[miroslav]

Quite. My boss could pick out differences and preferences between amps that I could not (but then I was 59 and a bit deaf!) . Invariably his judgement was spot on and the difference found with a scope and Levell mV meter.

His was also the last word on the voicing of amps and there was good percentage of people on forums that did NOT like his choice of 'house sound'. But not all! So, people hear different qualities in the SAME amplifier and have their likes and dislikes.

Dave.

I think you could take most guitar players, and they would be able to pick up 10 of the same guitars, and find 1-2 that they preferred because they were different from the rest...and the same thing with amps.
To the untrained ear, everything will sound the same...but there is a delicate pickiness found with many musicians, and they will most certainly hear the subtle differences and select the things they prefer.
The funny thing is when someone who just can't hear the subtleties...is convinced that everyone else is talking BS because they can hear them.

 

[miroslav]

Dave is going to continue the childish notion that his DRRI is better than my DRRI. Fine. Whatever.

That is not a mature solution.

He said different...not "better".
You keep saying that because it makes your straw man arguments more valid...because you don't hear any differences.
Honestly...get out of the box for a bit, put aside the MIDI and the samples and the presets, and go play and/or listen to some acoustic/live instruments.

The beauty is not in the sameness...but in the difference...otherwise everyone would sound the same and play the same kind of music.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

Oh, now my ear is quite accurate. We are talking the gears' sound. Not the information the player provides.

Did I ask you to make a video? The reason is you cant. But I can make a clip to show they do sound the same. Hmm.

Gotta try to play the same A chord though.

 

[snow lizard]

I'm not sure that Dave actually plays anything, but he's an EE that built guitar amps for a living.

I digress. Apologies!

I have no idea how to properly record anything,,,see my newbie post!

It seems like you're looking for validation that if you have a certain piece of gear that it will give you a specific type of sound. You are correct.

What the user manual will not tell you, and very much on point to what others have said in this thread since the beginning is that if you have a mediocre band in a state of the art facility with all the best fantastic science fiction equipment and lots of it, being run by novices, the results aren't likely to be very good. If you have a great band with great songs in a modest enviornment with modest equipment and a very skilled producer and engineer, the less than stellar gear won't necessarily prevent a great result.

The monitoring chain is critical.

Room acoustics are more critical as you move microphones farther away from a sound source.

Microphone placement is far more critical than selection. Look at the Beatles video where they're recording guitar and bass with large condensers and drums with moving coils.

The song, performance and arrangement are all King. One of the common production techniques from back in the day was to bring the band in the studio, have them play their stuff and then hire The Wrecking Crew to come in and play it for them.

Gain staging is very important.

Judicious and effective processing (or lack thereof) is an effective tool. Completely incapable of giving you something that was never there in the first place. The law of diminishing returns starts to come into play.

Having an API preamp, or a Neve clone or REDD or whatever can certainly be helpful. It's not so much of a deal breaker. If you don't have everything else in order it doesn't matter so much. The golden channel won't make your MIDI tracks sound like Guy Lombardo. It certainly won't fix anything that happened upstream.

At the pro level, everything that you can have control over matters. The food and drugs matter. The lighting matters. Everything. More so anything to do with sound transductance.

 

[miroslav]

Oh, now my ear is quite accurate. We are talking the gears' sound. Not the information the player provides.

You can take a guitar amp, and depending on the way a person plays, the amp will sound different from person to person because there is a reactive relationship between the player, the guitar and the amp.

This is not on some "microscopic" level as you say, but actually quite obvious to a lot of players.
It's one of the reasons some players prefer using amps over guitar sims and samples...because there is an organic, ever-changing quality to the sound.
With sims and samples it can only be what the algorithm dictates.

I really think you need to spend more time listening...you're missing out on a lot of tonal flavors if all you do is stick to presets and patches that never change, so your ear becomes use to the sameness.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

Does the shoes one wears matter?

I wanna wear my Flights. Don't scuff the Flights bro.

The resistance foot to Earth. If I wear Converse Chucks , the soles too thin. I get grounded, man. I wanna fly. Flights it is.

 

[jimmys69]

[MENTION=55924]lazer[/MENTION] beak troll.

Realize there is truth in the advice you are getting from members. No one amp sounds the same in different rooms with different preamps or mics recording the performance. There is so much to do with the performer that it is possible to get close, but never exact. Get over the fact that you think it should be easy, because it isn't.

Why the hell would you want to duplicate a sound anyway? How about creating a new sound that works for your recording or whatever you have planned as a scope for the project?

Much popular music today IMO seems like a molded copy of what others have done recently. I love to hear something unique and genuine! Create something new and quit chasing the past. It is the musician that makes the sound unique. Not the signal path. Sounds like a heroin addict chasing the dragon. Though I would never suggest it, maybe it is drugs that you need to find what you are looking for? LOL It worked for many, until they died with that approach.. Well, except or Kieth Richards...

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

[MENTION=55924]lazer[/MENTION] beak troll.
Why the hell would you want to duplicate a sound anyway? How about creating a new sound that works for your recording or whatever you have planned as a scope for the project? .

Lets suppose you like OIL paintings. ELO or the Beatles or whatever is the oil painting. Metallica Megadeth is the Charcoal, and india ink.

I want to paint today with oil. So I want use that equipment as a base and make my own melodies and rythmes. A VST for JEFF LYNNE drums would sell like hotcakes on Sunday morning. Whatever he does it evolves in a linear way. Doing the same method.

Other days I might feel like working with INK. Some Lars type hits are in order. Same linear progression of his sound. Like trapping the hits in a EQ funnel or something.

Some days Im shit faced or retarded and need finger paints and crayons.


Hey man, thats what Hole did , Courney just played Kurts equipment. They were married. She played with his equipment.

 

[jimmys69]

Lets suppose you like OIL paintings. ELO or the Beatles or whatever is the oil painting. Metallica Megadeth is the Charcoal, and india ink.

I want to paint today with oil. So I want use that equipment as a base and make my own melodies and rythmes. A VST for JEFF LYNNE drums would sell like hotcakes on Sunday morning.

Other days I might feel like working with INK.

Some days Im shit faced or retarded and need finger paints and crayons.

I would say keep working with crayons and stop trying to pretend you know everything while asking questions. You can only learn from others whether they are wrong or not. Ignoring others makes you a troll. Grow up dude.

Cheers!

 

[powerpop]

And this approach is what you think makes for good music...everything the same, quantized for accuracy...?

OK...I guess we all have our styles and preferences.



Yeah...my amps all sound the same when no one is playing them.

You're arguing that the same brand/model of gear sounds the same...OK, but you leave out the rest...someone has to actually play/use the gear, and THAT is where the differences come from.
Go turn on your amp and stand back and let me know how it sounds without anyone playing it.

No one is saying that gear is not important, or if 10 people buy the same amp, it won't generally be the same sounding amp.
What's being said is that when people play, no two people sound the same, and even one person strumming one chord several times, each strum will not be identical. Sure, it may still be an "A" chord, but the subtle difference in the harmonics and dynamics of each strum is where the beauty lies.
I would think it would be totally boring if every strum was 100% identical....but apparently some people want that, and they use MIDI and preset patches to make everything the same, and robotic.

There is an article in the current Tape Op magazine where an engineer talks about tracking stuff with Neil Young, and how they took 10 Fender Reverb Deluxe amps, tried them all...and picked out the two best sounding ones...so even you're notion that every Fender is identical is not accurate.

There is a lot of overthinking going on in this thread. This is incredible. You agree that the same model and brand sounds the same. Thank you. We agree. Then you say I "left out the rest". Their is nothing to leave out. The statement was made and is correct. What you did is change the subject.

"The rest being left out".... Now you are talking about the individual style/technique of guitar players, not amplifiers; how he plays an "A" chord, does he play an A with open strings? Does he bar chord the "A"? etc etc.

Of course it will sound different than Joe Smith over there playing an "A' with a capo using flat wound strings or something - even though they are the same amps, jeeshh.

But the TONE of the amp has not changed. It's still a Fender, or a Marshall, or a "fill in the blank".

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

There is a lot of overthinking going on in this thread. This is incredible. You agree that the same model and brand sounds the same. Thank you. We agree. .

Of coarse they do sound the same.

There are some people who are focusing so hard they are on another level only they themselves hear. Thats no good. Prove it with a clip.

If the cel mic cannot pick it up display it on an O scope. Video man, the wave of the future.

 

[jimmys69]

There is a lot of overthinking going on in this thread. This is incredible. You agree that the same model and brand sounds the same. Thank you. We agree. Then you say I "left out the rest". Their is nothing to leave out. The statement was made and is correct. What you did is change the subject.

"The rest being left out".... Now you are talking about the individual style/technique of guitar players, not amplifiers; how he plays an "A" chord, does he play an A with open strings? Does he bar chord the "A"? etc etc.

Of course it will sound different than Joe Smith over there playing an "A' with a capo using flat wound strings or something - even though they are the same amps, jeeshh.

But the TONE of the amp has not changed. It's still a Fender, or a Marshall, or a "fill in the blank".

Ok, I will play a bit here...

You have forgotten the variables in the recording of any individual amp. In addition to the player, there is also the instrument (wood type, PU's, guitars can sound different even if they are the same production model) possible pedal effects before the amp or run as an effects chain. Then there is the speaker and cabinet the guitar is played through. the room the amp is recorded in, and the mic used to record it. There is no way to duplicate that, and I personally see no reason why you would want to? It not going to sound the same without the same player.

I understand trying to sound close (if that is what you are trying to achieve) but you will never get it. Paul doesn't use the same tone twice. Why would you want to duplicate one of them?

 

[jimmys69]

Of coarse they do sound the same.

There are some people who are focusing so hard they are on another level only they themselves hear. Thats no good. Prove it with a clip.

If the cel mic cannot pick it up display it on an O scope. Video man, the wave of the future.

Please learn to spell correctly if you wish to make a point. Which you have not. Sorry Dude, but you are wasting your time as well as others by lot listening and trolling this site.

I must ask; Why do you return here and continue to fight others? Wouldn't it be more beneficial if you actually presented your opinions instead of attacking those that have a different experience? I feel that would be way more productive, and we could learn from each other. Right?

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

Ok, I will play a bit here...

Jump in.

The listed gear put you in the gear is the sound camp?

Ok, why. I like Jeff's drums.

Spelling is unimportant. Jim keep it freindly. Nobody is trolling. Miro 's cool. We just have a difference. I think there is a answer. Cause there are members on both sides of the fence.

I would expect my bought item to sound the same reguardless who buys it.

 

[miroslav]

There is a lot of overthinking going on in this thread. This is incredible. You agree that the same model and brand sounds the same. Thank you. We agree. Then you say I "left out the rest". Their is nothing to leave out. The statement was made and is correct. What you did is change the subject.

"The rest being left out".... Now you are talking about the individual style/technique of guitar players, not amplifiers; how he plays an "A" chord, does he play an A with open strings? Does he bar chord the "A"? etc etc.

Of course it will sound different than Joe Smith over there playing an "A' with a capo using flat wound strings or something - even though they are the same amps, jeeshh.

But the TONE of the amp has not changed. It's still a Fender, or a Marshall, or a "fill in the blank".

No...actually you are oversimplifying the process of making sound and recording.

You talk about amps having "tone" without anyone playing them...???
You want to remove the player from the equation...but there is NO sound without a player, so it's a critical piece of the puzzle.

Yes...we were talking about how an "A" always sounds the same no matter who plays it...at least that's what LazerBeakShiek claims...and that is SO not true.
You now agree with that, but instead want to talk about how an amp sounds without anyone playing it...huh?



If you only knew how wrong you were in saying that every same model of a Marshall or Fender sounds the same...but I can only assume that you haven't played too many to know that they actually don't sound the same...because they all age differently.
OK...so what are you talking about...pulling two models off the assembly line...?
You guys are stuck on this "same" theme, that I have to wonder what is it that makes that such an important aspect of recording for you...?

Haven't you ever gone into a music store and tried out 5-6 of the same guitars...and guess what, they all sound and feel a little different, and I bet if you paid a little attention, you would find one that is the most pleasing to you.
Yes, ideally the same model of anything should be similar from unit to unit, but that isn't always the case...BUT...the important thing here is not just the gear on its own...what's important is how it is used, and THAT is where "sameness" goes out the window.

 

[miroslav]

I would expect my bought item to sound the same reguardless who buys it.

OK...but the minute you use it...or I use it...or someone else uses it...it's going to sound a little different, and THAT is really the point.
Talking about how it's the same when it's still in the box, unused...I mean...what's that got to do with anything? Why is that important to point out?
A preamp can have a color built into it...but you don't get anything from it, until someone uses it.

So back to the "A" chord...it's the same thing. An "A chord is always going to be made up of the same notes. On a guitar, if everyone holds an A in the same position, it still has the same notes that make up an "A" chord.
Now...if I strum it...or you strum it...it sounds a little different, with each strum. It's still an "A" chord, but its harmonics will change depending how it's strummed.
If you're going to simply use a MIDI track with data to execute an "A" chord from a sample...then it's always going to sound the same if the MIDI data is always the same, but that's where it also will become unnatural and robotic. That's not how people play, they don't loop MIDI data.

Maybe you like that...fine...but I think you're missing out on many other sonic possibilities if that's the only way you look at music production.