Pre-delay

[leavings]

I'm using Cakewalk Pro Audio 9, and I can't figure out how to create pre-delay. Is this a special plugin, separate from the regular delay and reverb? Or is it something I have to create by manipulating the plugins I already have?

Let me know if you have an answer.
Thanks, Peter

 

[moskus]

Pre-Delay is a delay before the actual signal, so you can't create it in realtime. You need to create the effect yourself.

 

[dachay2tnr]

Pre-Delay is a delay before the actual signal, so you can't create it in realtime. You need to create the effect yourself.

Moskus, I believe predelay is simply the amount of time you hear an "uneffected" signal before your hear the "effected" signal. I usually associate this with reverb. If you are listening to a live band, you will hear some of the signal directly from the band, and then some reflected back off the walls (reverb). The direct signal reaches you first, since the other signal needs to travel to the wall and back before you hear.

Most reverb plugins that I am familiar with have a predelay control on them, that allows you to set the amount of predelay used. Large auditorium reverbs will have a good deal of predelay, while small room reverbs will have very little or none.

However, I think the cheap reverb plugin that came packaged with PA9 doesn't have a predelay setting. Try getting copies of Freeverb or Anwida Reverb (also free). They probably have a pre-delay control on them, although I'm not at my DAW right now and can't confirm this.

 

[moskus]

I usually associate this with reverb.

That's what I thought too, but then it makes no sense (to me anyway ) as Pre-Delay is a part of an effect and it's not something you generate yourself.

So it got me thinking about the pre-delay used by Pink Floyd on the "The Wall"-album. You know the song before Another Brick in the Wall, Part 2 (it's called The Happiest Days of Our Lives)? The vocals start off with a pre-delay: "When, when when we grew up and went to school." It's a cool effect and I've used it myself sometimes...

 

[dachay2tnr]

That's what I thought too, but then it makes no sense (to me anyway ) as Pre-Delay is a part of an effect and it's not something you generate yourself.

What doesn't make sense? The pre-delay control simply delays the application of the effect. Sort of like the Attack Control on a compressor.

 

[moskus]

But you don't "create a pre-delay effect" with that setting on the reverb...


Dachay, I know what the pre-delay setting on a reverb-unit does.

 

[bob young]

It's been my experience that pre-delay is not always variable or even a part of reverb units..
We used to combine compression and delay to get that "flowering" reveb...
Generally, the more you pre-delay the onset the bigger (read more expansive) the reverb effect is to the ear.
Setting a quick and hard attack on the compressor then leaving it open at the end adds to the blossoming sound..

Cool on everything from snare/sidesticks to horn slaps!
And gushy vocals !

Is this making sense ?

Probably not.......

Where the Hell are my pills ?

Should I make the green beans with the pork chops...or go with the Lima bean/corn combo ?

Hmmmmmm......

Bob

 

[dachay2tnr]

It's been my experience that pre-delay is not always variable or even a part of reverb units..

Bob, for my part I was speaking strictly of software reverbs (plugins). Most - but not all - of the ones I have, do have a pre-delay setting on them.

And you're correct, the more pre-delay the more expansive the reverb (since it is emulating a larger room).

 

[bob young]

Sorry Dachay...

I gotta get used to Software VS Hardware !

Just showing off my DUH factor !

Bob

 

[leavings]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what pre-delay is. Could anyone suggest some songs that clearly demonstrate the effect?

 

[ZOWIE!]

So is that cross-channel stuff in the beginning of the Stones' "Angie" like the world's longest pre-delay, a separate track entirely, or print-through?

 

[dachay2tnr]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what pre-delay is. Could anyone suggest some songs that clearly demonstrate the effect?

Let's try it again.

When you listen to a live performance, you are hearing sound both directly and indirectly. The direct sound comes from the stage directly to your ears. The indirect sound is the relections of the music off the walls and ceiling of the room. From the stage to the walls and reflected back to your ears. Because the reflected sound travels further, you hear it slightly later than you hear the direct sound.

The indirect sounds are what we call reverb - i.e., reflected sound.

Pre-delay is an attempt to make an artificial reverb sound more natural. What it does is delay the reverb signal (the wet signal), so that first you hear the direct (dry signal), followed milliseconds later by the reverb. The amount of time between the two is the pre-delay.

Hope that helps somewhat.

 

[leavings]

Okay, I get it; essentially you're just delaying the wet portion of your reverbed track. The plugin I've been using doesn't have that option, but I'll try to track one down that does.

 

[dachay2tnr]

Okay, I get it; essentially you're just delaying the wet portion of your reverbed track. The plugin I've been using doesn't have that option, but I'll try to track one down that does.

Bingo.

If you're using the Reverb that came with PA9, you are correct, it doesn't have a pre-delay setting. Try Anwida DX Reverb Light. Google it. It's free.

 

[Bulls Hit]

So what would you call the effect in Whole Lotta Love where Plant sings 'Way down inside...' and the 'delayed' signal is heard before the initiating signal?

 

[moskus]

That's a Pre Delay (apparently). Without the "-"...

 

[dachay2tnr]

So what would you call the effect in Whole Lotta Love where Plant sings 'Way down inside...' and the 'delayed' signal is heard before the initiating signal?

It's been a *few* years since I listened to any Zeppelin. There is an effect called a reverse reverb, which I'm pretty sure is where you actually hear the verb before the dry signal. (The opposite of a pre-delay?).

However, my recollection of that song was that the effect was a delay, rather than a reverb. I've heard of people who put a delay effect on an Aux Bus and then print a 100% wet delay track. After that you could slide the wet track forward in time so it starts before the dry track. Could it have been something like that maybe?

 

[Bulls Hit]

Yeah that sounds likely.

I wonder what techniques they used to 'slide' tracks around in 1969?

 

[moskus]

I wonder what techniques they used to 'slide' tracks around in 1969?

You record it to another tape, and record it back again...

 

[dachay2tnr]

You record it to another tape, and record it back again...

By jove I think he's got it.

Actually, I think that is pretty much along the lines of how they did "normal" delay in those days as well. (There weren't any plugins. ) So it's just a matter of whether you run the tape early or late.