Pre amps? What are they? And how do you use them?

[randyfromde]

I do the same type of music you are looking to record. Start recording now, learning how to get a good recorded acoustic guitar sound down and vocals. Those are the most important and can be done with what you have. Then slowly add a new instrument into the fold.

I'm now working on doing electric bass, acoustic guitar, and vocals. I've got some drum tracks too, and it's a lot harder than I'd have thought. Trying to put them all together made me realize I haven't spent enough time learning to mix on a smaller scale. And that only comes with practice.

Your gear is good enough for quite some time. It's more technique than equipment.

 

[c7sus]

If $$$ is no object, you might be a lot better served by rehearsing your ass off and going into a local studio and paying somebody else to record you.

I don't think you really grasp the learning curve associated with recording.

Not trying to dis you, but it's not just "plug mic A into preamp B into recording media C and let 'er rip."

You know you need some room treatments too, right???

Because if the room sounds like ass, it won't matter what mic or pre or anything else if the room is full of flutter echo and has standing waves at 100Hz--- or any other frequency.

You get the same result: MUD.

 

[Mike_Jandreau]

I could just go to a local studio, but I'd rather learn and do it myself. I do grasp the concept, and I'm not saying at all that it's going to be something easy. I'm trying to learn, isn't that what this forum is for?

I understand about acoustic treatment, and have read various articles that have been posted here and there throughout the forum. I'm doing my research and planning on doing it right the first time.

I didn't say money was no object, I said it wasn't a large object. I'd like to be able to buy everything, and learn how to use it. I don't want to just go pay someone a few grand, and walk away with a CD-R with my stuff on it. I'd rather be able to say "Yea, I recorded this myself" And have a good feeling about something I've done.

I do grasp the concept of how everything works. Perhaps it's the other people who read and respond to things on this forum that don't understand the concept of a newbie trying to learn. I asked a simple question to start this threat. What is a pre-amp, why do I want one, and how do you use them. And I still don't have the foggiest idea as to what it is. Not because I'm not learning, but because the only answers I keep getting are either a) attacking the gear I've chosen to buy, b) people telling me I'm ignorant and should know these things, c)that I'm not grasping how things work (cause they haven't been explained to me) or d) people who just expect me to know everything, when I've clearly stated that I'm a newbie to this, and want to do the best I can.

I hope that clarifies things for my end. I can learn these things, and I want to learn these things. All I asked for was a little help.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

I asked a simple question to start this thread. What is a pre-amp, why do I want one, and how do you use them? And I still don't have the foggiest idea as to what it is.

Most studio equipment operates at line levels - around one volt or so. They don't change the electrical output, just modify it a bit and put out about what they take in.

Transducers (things that change one form of energy into another, like microphones and loudspeakers) require more energy to make them work well with the rest of the studio stuff. Speakers require a lot of voltage at a very low impedance, while microphones need to have their weak output signals amplified before they're sent to the rest of the studio equipment. That's the job of the mic preamp. But since the signal is so low, a lot of amplification is needed, which can also amplify any noise and distortion that a cheap preamp may have. Good preamps do that job without adding unwanted other signals.

Designing a really good preamp, like designing a really good power amplifier, is not a trivial task. The good ones cost.

 

[Mike_Jandreau]

Thank you Harvey, you've clarified this for me.

Now, can you recommend a good/decent two channel pre amp, for use mainly with vocals, and an undeterminded microphone?

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Thank you Harvey, you've clarified this for me.

Now, can you recommend a good/decent two channel pre amp, for use mainly with vocals, and an undeterminded microphone?

The FMR RNP at $500 is a wonderful preamp that really sounds great. The Safe Sound P1 and the Great River preamps are also good values, but more expensive. I don't know too much about some of the other lower priced preamps, but I'm sure there's a lot more information over at "The Rack" forum.

 

[mshilarious]

The sound of an acoustic kit usually drowns out good headphones, even really good iso-phones. So, I'd rather have the board in the other room (which is as close to soundproof as I can get it), where the mixing person can listen openly via the monitors, to ensure I'm getting the best sound I can get.

Well it's nice to have a control room, but now you are spending several thousand dollars on soundproof construction on top of the acoustic treatment of both the live room and the control room. Look, that will be a really nice studio, but there is no harm in learning things on a smaller scale to start with.

I don't get the comment about iso phones at all. Let's say you get 20dB of reduction from the phones. Just how loud are the drums across the room? 105dB? That's 85dB inside the phones, which isn't too tough to overcome.

Of course I personally don't see the need for 105dB drums in the studio, but then I care about my ears--what's left of them. Despite being careful for many years now, last week I picked up tinnitus. Off to the doctor pretty soon. Did I mention I have 50% hearing in my right ear? That's leftover from ear infections, but the principle is the same--protect your ears.

As for mics, snare, kick, 3 toms, 2 overhead, and a room? That's still 8 mics. I like to do that myself minus the room, but it's good to learn how to do it with just 4.

 

[Mike_Jandreau]

Well, that's why I want to use the control room. I've had this room specifically built for it. It's about 90% soundproof already. So since I already spent $2400 to build and soundproof it, I might as well use it, no?

The rest of my gear is going to get better as I go along, as well as the room the drums are in. That will be acoustically treated the best I can, to get the best sound out of it.

Maybe my comment about iso phones is wrong. I've never used a "good" paid. I've used noise-cancelling headphones before, and I've always had trouble hearing what I'm playing along to (given, 10 years without playing with earplugs will do that to ya), so I assume that playing into the headphones, I won't be able to get a good judge of what EQ needs to be changed on the board. I assumed it would make more sense to have this done in the (almost sound proof) control room.

 

[mshilarious]

I assume that playing into the headphones, I won't be able to get a good judge of what EQ needs to be changed on the board. I assumed it would make more sense to have this done in the (almost sound proof) control room.

I agree. But you don't have to EQ during tracking, although you do need to get mic positioning correct so you don't have to EQ later. Again, if you're using your own kit, once you learn it, it doesn't change much.

Since you're going about this in a serious way I'd suggest skipping the snake and running wires through the wall. That way you can put several panels at various places in the room to keep cables short & maximize your flexibility. I get my panels and wires from partsexpress.com but there are some other sources too.

 

[Mike_Jandreau]

Sounds like a feasable thing, I've done it before with home theater wires, why not XLRs.

So you suggest EQing after recording the track? I thought about that, and was unsure how I'd hook everything up.

Tell me if this makes sense? I want each drum on it's own track, so I run each mic to a different sub group on my board, and run the 8 subgroup outs to my 8 inputs on the soundcard, right?

Then the 8 outs on my card, I sent to the 8 subgroup inputs? Or do I send them back to the inserts on the specific channels? That's the part I don't get.

But I guess what you're saying about not having to move the mics after they're set up makes sense. Since the room's designed specifically for drums, I don't forsee moving them anywhere once I'm set up.

 

[Afficianado]

I'd like to step in and recommend possibly an M-Audio DMP3 for a mic preamp. At $150 it won't bust your budget, and it's a very simple piece of equipment which does its job fairly well. I use one with my SM57 mic for both vocals and guitar amp track recording. M-Audio made it with the Delta series of input cards in mind, so you should be good.

That said, I (like some others here) am not convinced that you're really gonna need this to get a servicable sound, but it's still a decent investment. If you're bent on spending 500 bucks, spend $150 on this and save the $350 for something else, perhaps an amp-modeler.

 

[Mike_Jandreau]

Thanks for the input. I was exactly bent on spending $500 on it, I just didn't wanna lowball a price. I'll look into that.

As for the amp modeler, I'll be using a Digitech RP-10 for my effects, playing through a small practice amp. And since I've already customized all my settings with this pedal years ago, I'm sure I can get the sound I want.

Thanks again for the input on the pre amp. I think I'm going to take everyone's suggestion and try the board with an external pre amp. Then if I think it sucks, I'll buy one, and see what the difference is.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed (even negatively). I appreciate the help.

 

[mshilarious]

Then the 8 outs on my card, I sent to the 8 subgroup inputs? Or do I send them back to the inserts on the specific channels? That's the part I don't get.

Typically you would use the channel inserts for sends if you're only using 8 channels. Most boards don't have 8 subgroups, but if yours does that works too. If you use more than 8 mics at a time, you'll need to create a submix to send to your 8 input soundcard, which would be done with the main mix and/or subgroups on your mixer.

You don't need to send 8 channels out of the soundcard to mix on your mixer; you can mix & EQ using your recording software. Software EQ tends to be a lot more flexible than mixer EQ, plus it saves you a D/A/D conversion. By the time you are ready for mixdown, you'll have a lot more than 8 tracks, and you generally want to save EQ decisions for the final mix.

During tracking you send separate mixes out from your soundcard, usually a main mix to the monitors, and a headphone mix or two. These can be routed back through open input channels or sub ins on your mixer.

But let me reiterate one point: if during tracking, you realize that a particular instrument needs EQ, you should fix that by moving or changing the mic to correct the problem rather than turning an EQ knob.

 

[Mike_Jandreau]

Thanks for your help mshilarious. I appreciate you taking the time to respond in depth no what I should use as common practice.

I had planned on EQing everything in Cool Edit anyway, but some people have said it's better to mix down all my tracks through my board, and then run a stereo out back to the software. But if what you're saying is easier, then I'll just learn to do it that way.

Again, thanks for your help.
I'm gonna try to let this thread die now.