Pre amps? What are they? And how do you use them?

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Mike_Jandreau

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Ok, so I'm confused a bit about pre-amps. All I really know is that the ones in my board suck.

I need to know why I would want to use them, what applications I would want to use them for (just vocals, guitars, drums, bass), and what's some good makes and models of them (keeping within reasonable price, under $500 US).

Anyone wanna get the ball rolling and help me out?
 
out of curiosity, if thats really all you know about preamps, how is it that you know that the ones in your board suck?
 
I've read enough on this message board to know that 99% of pre amps built into mixers aren't good enough to do the job. hence my question.

I'm in the process of putting together a small home studio to record my solo stuff, and I want to make sure that I get everything that'll get me a decent sound. I don't want top notch professional, but I want something I can listen to without vomitting at the hideousness of the sound.

So I figure the more questions I ask, the more help I'll get, the better gear I'll buy, the better sound I'll get. I'm not a cheapass, I just want to know what's good for the money I want to spend on each piece of gear.
 
Mike_Jandreau said:
I've read enough on this message board to know that 99% of pre amps built into mixers aren't good enough to do the job. hence my question.
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I'd venture your board is probably OK unless it's a real piece of trash. Learn to use what you have to your best advantage. Even when you get a few channels of nice pres, you'll probably still use your mixer when you need lots of channels.

It could be that you don't like the sound of the main mix or the EQ or something else on your board. Have you tried using the channel inserts? That's how you can directly tap the preamps.
 
To be honest, I haven't even used the board. Right now I'm in the "buy stuff, and put it in a big pile till I get everything" stage. So, my board's sitting there, in it's box, unused.

I've been reading up a little bit on Pres since I posted this, and it seems like some of the pres in boards (even shitty ones) are okay enough to do instruments with. Though I might want to consider getting some "good" pres for voice and vocal recordings? Does that seem to make sense?

Then down the road if I have a pre amp with XLR ins on it, and hate how my guitar is sounding, I can use those two preamps to overdub the guitar. Right?

Forgive me for being ignorant on this, but I'm trying to learn. And this is by far the best place to do it.
 
Which board are you talking about???

You might wanna use the pres before you dis them.

Small project studios use outboard pres either as the "go-to" or too add different crayons to pick from.

The entire signal chain (mics/converters/etc) and the room also contribute greatly to the finished recording.

So there's no "magic bullet" one-size-fits-all solution. There's just too many variables to consider.

If you're recording acoustic instruments, you probably want something transparent, fast and clean with a lot of clean gain. If you're recording electric guitars you might want something with a transformer to add some bite and color.

So what are you recording and what mics are you using???
 
I'm recording mostly acoustic-type rock, with some distorted guitars in a few of the songs (ala Butch Walker, Edwin McCain, Jesse Malin).

The board I bought in a Behringer (which I know everyone hates, but for the money I couldn't pass up buying something to 'learn' on).

Mics haven't been bought yet. Though I'm considering Studio Projects for my overheads and acoustic guitars, a Shure KSM27 for my vocals, and drum mics are still up in the air. That's another post, for another time, as I'm sure there's 150,000 opinions on mics.

I'm just curious, mainly for vocals, how much of a different a pre amp is going to make. Yes, that sounds ignorant and naive. But how else am I going to learn if I don't ask? I could go to Guitar Crapter and ask them, but they just want me to spend money. You guys don't make a penny, so I thought I'd ask here.
 
Mike_Jandreau said:
I've read enough on this message board to know that 99% of pre amps built into mixers aren't good enough to do the job. hence my question.
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Really, only a small percentage of boards are that bad. In my experience, until you can get something decent out of what you have, then something better won't help. If your board is that bad then you really should be looking for a new board, and not a preamp. Experience, knowledge and musicianship are what make good recordings. Not gear. Adding good gear to the experience, knowledge, and musicianship is what makes great recordings. Its really hard to answer your questions unless we know what you already have, what you expect, and how youplan to accomplish it all. So far you have really beat around the bush about what you already have, and I am not sure why.

However, to show that I am listening, I will answer your question. In my opinions the best preamps for $500 or less are the RNP, the D&R preamp, the grace (501 was it?) and the summit (2Ba I believe). The D&R and the Grace are a little more of your cleani, straightwire approach, the RNP isn't really clean, but nor is it heavily colored. It just sort of does its thing, and does it fairly well. The Summit would be the most colored of these preamps and has a fairly warm smooth sound, but nothing really even similar to the nicer summits which are far more aggressive and dynamic (to my ears). All of this of course is just my own opinion.
 
Thank you for your opinions. I appreciate all the help.

I apologize if I seemed like I was being vague. But like I said, I'm still in the "buying everything" phase, and trying to get everything sorted out before I go dropping money on stuff it turns out I don't need, ya know?

I just want a decent sounding recording. Decent enough to give away at my shows.

Here's a list of what I have bought so far.
Takamine Acoustic
Ovation Acoustic
Dean Icon AX Electric
Ibanez SZ520
Crate 212 Amp
Pearl Masters BRX 6 piece kit
Behringer 3282A board
Monitors: nothing yet
Mics: nothing yet
Pre Amps: nothing yet
Snakes: nothing yet
Bass Amp: nothing yet
Bass: nothing yet.
PCU: 3.8 Ghz P4, 3GB PC2700, (2) 180 GB Hds (1 firewire, 1 HDD)
Soundcard: planning on the Delta 1010 (not the lt)

And I mentioned earlier the type of stuff I play. So any, and all opinions are welcomed.
 
If you're recording solo stuff in a small home studio, I doubt you'll need snakes...a couple decent XLR and 1/4" cables should be more than enough. You should also consider recording software if you're doing computer recording. At this point I doubt you need pre's but if you're set on it, I think the M-audio DMP3 would complement the rest of your gear well. Plus it's less expensive and leaves more money for your monitors which are more important.
 
Snakes are handy. Check Ebay for used Monster. It has a lifetime warranty and when it breaks down they'll replace it.

I picked up a very nice 1/4" TRS 4M 8/ch Monster for about $95.
 
I omitted that. My bad.

Software: Cool Edit Pro 2.0 or Acid Pro 2.0

I figure the snake would be helpful for running the XLRs from the drums in the other room (about 30' away), into the room with my board and computer.
 
Mike_Jandreau said:
I figure the snake would be helpful for running the XLRs from the drums in the other room (about 30' away), into the room with my board and computer.
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They are. But if your board is portable, you could run the output cables 30' rather than all the input cables. Once you know what your drum setup is, you don't need to fiddle with the board much. However if you're not using the board for a submix, then you'll need a snake. Or you can run your own cables through the wall, that saves some money and is a nice look.

#1 priority would be soundcard, a couple of mics, then monitors (with associated cables). You need these items to be in business at all.
 
Soundcard I'm buying is the Delta 1010 which I'm ordering on the 30th of July, Mics are after that, then monitors.

Here's how I figured I'd set up the drum set up (since you brought up snakes)
10 Mics in the drum room (the room that's 30' away), Kick, Snare, Hi Hat, Ride, 2 Overheads, 3 Mounted Toms, 1 Floor Toms (mics to be announced later) From there, I wanted to run them into a 12 channel snake, to the Board in the other room, where I'll have someone who will be mixing and EQing the setup. Since I'm in the room playing I won't be able to hear what sounds good coming through the mics (even with iso headphones on), so I figure having the board in the other room, and running it to the Delta 1010 would be my best bet. No?

I was just curious as to how much of a difference a Pre-amp for my mics is going to make. No one's really clearly answered the question yet. Is it a day/night difference in the quality of the sound? Yea, I'm probably gonna get a "it depends on what you have, and what you buy" response.. So let's say I have the cheapest possible shit ever created on the face of the earth, and I buy a $500 pre amp. Am I going to hear a difference? (not that my shit's the cheapest on earth, but that's my example)
 
Mike_Jandreau said:
So let's say I have the cheapest possible shit ever created on the face of the earth, and I buy a $500 pre amp. Am I going to hear a difference?
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Night and Day.
 
okay, so with that said, I ask this:

Should I use the pre-amps mainly for vocal recording. (Ie get a 2 channel pre-amp), or should I use the preamps for everything I'm recording (get a larger 8 channel pre amp) and run all my gear through it?
 
Yeah, DECENT preamps are gonna be night and day vs the pres in the Behringer.

But get ready to spend $250/channel and up for "decent", and over $500/channel for REALLY DECENT.

Why won't you be able to hear what sounds good with good headphones???

And 10 mics on a drumset is overkill. You should be able to get decent sounding drums with a kick mic, snare, and a couple overheads. If you wanna get a little fancier, maybe mic a couple of toms. With no experience, you put 10 mics on a drumset and you're gonna wind up with mush.
 
Mike_Jandreau said:
okay, so with that said, I ask this:

Should I use the pre-amps mainly for vocal recording. (Ie get a 2 channel pre-amp), or should I use the preamps for everything I'm recording (get a larger 8 channel pre amp) and run all my gear through it?
Click to expand...

Every mic needs a preamp.

If you had told us you're a drummer at the beginning we could have all saved some time.:p
 
Mike_Jandreau said:
...So let's say I have the cheapest possible shit ever created on the face of the earth, and I buy a $500 pre amp. Am I going to hear a difference?..
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They say your sound's no better than the weakest link in your signal chain (which in this case is probably your knowledge and experience - no disrespect intended) - so no, you probably won't hear much difference.


An outboard preamp is the least of your problems. The ones in your mixer will be fine until you get the rest of your system set up and learn a little. :)
 
Not entirely what I was shooting for with the last post. Someone inquired how I was doing the drum set up, so I mentioned it. The Pre Amps I'm more concered with are for vocal use.

Spending the $250 per channel's not an issue for me. It's only money, and I want this to come out as good as I can get it to, ya know?

The I won't be able to hear with good headphones comment is just my experience. The sound of an acoustic kit usually drowns out good headphones, even really good iso-phones. So, I'd rather have the board in the other room (which is as close to soundproof as I can get it), where the mixing person can listen openly via the monitors, to ensure I'm getting the best sound I can get.


Ok, so 10 mics we all agree is overkill? How about a more basic set up like this: 1 kick mic, 1 snare mic, 1 mic on each tom, 2 overheads, and a room mic about 15' away from the bass drum, level with the top of my kick? Sound more reasonable?

I'm not afraid to spend the money on the stuff, I just want to know why I should buy certain things, and how much of an impact they're going to make. And I'm still not so certain that the pre amps in my board aren't going to cut the job.
 
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