Pre Amps (Vocal)

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jasonwick

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I have it in my head that I need a Pre-amp, specifically for vocals.
Im never happy with the quality of my vocal recordings, and seem to spend hours mixing trying to get them up to scratch so that they will sit in the mix better. They always sound too close in the front of the mix, sitting on top like a bad karaoke recording and often have an annoying tone to them. Its often like i could just reach out and touch them as they sit there seperate from the rest of the recording.

Im using a fairly cheap £70-£80 SE electronics 2000 condenser mic, i have also tried sm57's and 58's for vocals but that seems to add to the problem.
Its very possible my 'room' set up is incorrect and I will make a post with pictures of my vocal area set up later.

Anyway Ive seen this
Google Image Result for http://www.soundaffectsmusic.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/9/298-1_art_tube_mp_studio_v3_multipurpose_tube_preamp__1.jpg


what are your thoughts any good?? or anything else out there in this price range better??
I realise a pre amp will not be the magic answer to all my recording problems but is it a good start.

I'm currently using

SE Electronics 2000 Condenser straight into..
Edirol UA-25 Audio Interface


thanks for reading
 
Have you experimented with mic placement? If your vocal is too 'up front' you might try backing away from the mic and trying some takes. Also cutting the lows or low-mids can help. I also find that double-tracking the vocal usually gives me a better tone. Some judicious compression can help as well. I have used lots of different mics and preamps and found that many times it is a technique issue rather than a gear issue. Good Luck!
 
I know what you mean , this has always been my number one annoying factor with recording. I remember once singing/recording at home with a duvet cover over my head as I read that it would improve the recording. The problem with that is I almost suffocated. I found that with me the issue was solved when I stopped getting so hung up about the tone of my voice. I also experiemented with loads of VST reverbs to try and get a nice sound. I'm not quite sure why vocals tend to stand out separate from music, but its definitely an issue with mixing them in properly and perhaps EQ-ing them to fit. Though I find EQ can often kill vocal recordings if over-used. Sometimes investing in a very good reverb/vocal enhancer might work.
 
I don't have any experience with that Edirol interface or its preamps. But I used to use that Art. I doubt that it's going to be much of a step up for you. The Art, in my experience, gives you a very undefined low midrange. It imparts a "warbly-ness" to the sound. Again, just my experience. It has a nice price but it's not going to be a great preamp for vocals or anything else. The Edirol might not be great either, I'm just saying the Art is not likely to be a step up.

The first thing I'd do is follow the advice of clivus and experiment with mic placement. Back away from the mic. Put the mic in a different spot in the room. Stand with your back to a wall and project out in to the room. Turn around and do just the opposite. Face a window. Face a wall. Stand in a corner. Stand along a wall. etc. See how that changes your vocal sound. *Then* maybe start talking about preamp purchases.
 
what are your thoughts any good?? or anything else out there in this price range better??
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Junk. Rule of thumb -- If you see "ridiculously cheap" and "tube" in the same sentence, prepare to hear "crap" in the next.

One ridiculously cheap preamp that actually sounds pretty decent -- M-Audio's DMP3. It's not awesome, it has basically no usable headroom, it falls apart on hot transient material (again, keep the levels NORMAL and you won't really have a problem), but it's a pretty solid runner.
 
I agree with John, the DMP3 is a pretty decent preamp; great price quality. For a little less $$$ than the DMP3 you can get the TUBEpre from Presonus and IMHO is a pretty decent preamp as well.
 
Massive Master said:
Junk. Rule of thumb -- If you see "ridiculously cheap" and "tube" in the same sentence, prepare to hear "crap" in the next.

One ridiculously cheap preamp that actually sounds pretty decent -- M-Audio's DMP3. It's not awesome, it has basically no usable headroom, it falls apart on hot transient material (again, keep the levels NORMAL and you won't really have a problem), but it's a pretty solid runner.
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I have been told this compared quality to others and its actually very true
 
even in a non-treated vocal room/booth, you could add reverbs to control how the vocal sits in the mix
certain reverbs can control this aspect very well.
 
Carla_Anne said:
I know what you mean , this has always been my number one annoying factor with recording. I remember once singing/recording at home with a duvet cover over my head as I read that it would improve the recording. The problem with that is I almost suffocated. I found that with me the issue was solved when I stopped getting so hung up about the tone of my voice. I also experiemented with loads of VST reverbs to try and get a nice sound. I'm not quite sure why vocals tend to stand out separate from music, but its definitely an issue with mixing them in properly and perhaps EQ-ing them to fit. Though I find EQ can often kill vocal recordings if over-used. Sometimes investing in a very good reverb/vocal enhancer might work.
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This is a funny image in my head and I can imagine you struggling for air. Kudos to you for giving it a good college try - trying something even if it sounds different to get a better sound. There's a few stories around here about a variety of amusing techniques - you never know until you try 'em..
 
thank you everyone, after much more experimenting i have decided to get a vocal preamp, but have raised my ceiling price a bit!. thanks
 
jasonwick said:
thank you everyone, after much more experimenting i have decided to get a vocal preamp, but have raised my ceiling price a bit!. thanks
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A mic preamp will normally have a very small effect on your sound quality compared to mic choice and placement. I don't think getting one, especially an affordable one, will have much positive effect on your sound.

And just to be sure, you're singing into the side of the mic, not the end of it, right?
 
Have you recorded only your own voice? Or have you recorded someone else, someone you and everybody else knows to be a really good singer? I spent many years thinking my vocal recording techniques needed work, if only this or if only that then my vocals will sound good.

Then I recorded a trained singer on that same gear and the vocal track just came to life. The problem, I'm sorry to admit, was my singing. I hate to play the villain in all of this, not trying to insult you at all, but it is a fair question....... are you a good singer? It would be nice to hear a sample, that would at least tell us if the problem is with the signal and the gear or not. Even with today's "budget" gear it is still good enough that it won't make a good singer sound bad. A good singer will still sound good even thru bad gear, but a weak singer will never sound good thru top dollar gear.....

The best thing I ever did for my vocals was take voice coaching. And start recording good singers, observe how they do it, how they play the mic. Experienced singers will come in the studio and they will not wear nylon jogging suits (noisy noisy) and they will not move around a lot in front of the mic, they dont wear jangly earrings and have their cell phone in their hands while the record button is lit up.

Do several test recordings, and use two or three mics. Start at 1 inch away, then 6 inches, then 12 inches, then 2 or 3 feet, recording all three mics at once. Experiment with on axis (directly at the mic) and off axis (at an angle to the mic) and hear how the tone changes. Record a few passes with a compressor at different settings. Record yourself singing a harmony part and see how they blend. Make some good coffee and sit down and listen to each recording, hear how each mic sounds at various distances, etc.etc....

I know a ton of engineers will tell us to not use a compressor on vocal tracks, but my suspicion is that only a very small percentage of trained, highly skilled (or very gifted) singers can get a great vocal take that sounds good in the mix without any compression. The second best thing I ever did for my vocals was learn how to use a compressor on my voice without making it sound like I'm using a compressor. Yes, it's a crutch, but it helps compensate for the obvious holes in my vocal skills......and I use that word "skills" very loosely here. I also will pick which mic sounds the best with my vocie in a particular song, but I will also blend in a slight "just noticeable" amount of one of the other mic tracks too, just to phatten it up a bit, warm it up a tad. Doubling is a trick all by itself, and is best done, imo, by singing it twice rather than using a digital copy. It helps, but you gotta be really good at getting your pitches and phrasing to match as exactly as possible. The digital "clone" method usually ends up sounding like, you guessed it, a digital clone.......but it can be done if you take the time to experiment and figure out how to do it in a pleasing way.

And one other thing I've noticed about recording vocs.......EQ is rarely the right answer. It's better to fix it at the source, not in the mix.
 
Yep, meant to write that you probably just aren't used to hearing your voice objectively.
 
Stepping up into a high end pre will give a benefit. The lowest cost highend mic pre that will put you in the game is about $400-$500 for an ISA. This is a wonderful vocal pre. It has a nice color to it but more importantly will give you a defined image. Anything less is really a waste of money IMO. A good mic pre will make your low end mic sound quite a bit better.
 
Paul999 said:
Stepping up into a high end pre will give a benefit. The lowest cost highend mic pre that will put you in the game is about $400-$500 for an ISA. This is a wonderful vocal pre. It has a nice color to it but more importantly will give you a defined image. Anything less is really a waste of money IMO. A good mic pre will make your low end mic sound quite a bit better.
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Very true. I have used cheap 99 dollar dynamics with great pres and they sound like a million bucks! :D
 
IK Obi said:
Very true. I have used cheap 99 dollar dynamics with great pres and they sound like a million bucks! :D
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I have used pretty good mics (Neumann) with modest preamps and noticed a similar result. :)
 
thanks for replies guys..
many tracks of me singing can be heard here, many different styles on different tracks
Jason Wick | Norwich, UK | Rock / Musician, Singer, Songwriter, / My Entire Recording Past....Good and Bad!! | Music, Lyrics, Songs, and Videos | ReverbNation
I aint not celine dion but i can hold a tune!!

I recently began experimenting with some other mics, just sm58's and sm57's and they sound a whole let better than my SE electronics 2000 condenser. In comparisson the condensor mic results have no bottom end and just have an annoying irritating middle frequency?
The crazy thing is just holding the 58's and singing at the desk reaps better results than using the set up condensor!?!?! :(
 
Well, I will make it official...... the problem is definitely NOT your singing! You have a great ability there.

But I'm not convinced a better pre is what you need either. By the sound of the style of music you have on that page, I think your biggest challenge is the actual mixing. You are not just doing straight drums-piano-bass-guitar with a cherry singer on top. The stuff you are trying to mix (and you've done a nice job already) is perhaps far more challenging to mix than you realize. The analogy would be you tell the instructor you want to take flying lessons, then you start walking toward the Lear Jet first instead of the Cessna.

You already have a great start, but I didn't hear any problems in your tunes that cant be "fixed in the mix".....maybe a re-record here and there, but I'm not convinced having more expensive gear will give you more than just a subtle improvement. However, some people (myself included) believe subtle improvements are the name of the game in music production, so if it's worth it to your ears, then it's worth it.......period!

You certainly have the talent to justify it!
 
jasonwick said:
I recently began experimenting with some other mics, just sm58's and sm57's and they sound a whole let better than my SE electronics 2000 condenser. In comparisson the condensor mic results have no bottom end and just have an annoying irritating middle frequency?
The crazy thing is just holding the 58's and singing at the desk reaps better results than using the set up condensor!?!?! :(
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Then do that.

Any directional mic, with a couple of exceptions, will have proximity effect. When you get withing a certain distance of them there's a strong low/low-mid boost that increases the closer you get. Dynamic mics tend to have a little less crispness than condensers. Singing close to a good cardioid dynamic mic may be the recipe for your vocals. If you like how you sound on a 58 then borrow a Sennheiser MD-421 to try out.
 
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