Pre-Amps! Toneport?

  • Thread starter Thread starter jay clarke
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If you want to sound like Petrucci get the minimum core elements of his rig... no Toneports or Pods there. It costs a shit load but the sound is amazing: Mesa Boogie Triaxis with a Simul Class 2:90 Poweramp (he actually uses two Triaxees(?)). Petrucci's rig is ridiculously big, about the size of two freeezers full of rack gear.
I have a PODxt, a Digitech GNX-1 and a Boss GT-Pro - they all create their own sounds but none can come anywhere near to close to Metallica or Dream Theatre tones. Toneport has it's place, great for creating demos and scratch tracks but not world class tones.
 
A musician friend of mine uses a AVT 150, I wouldn't say it's complete crap, but to each his own I guess. He's got it sounding pretty decent live, but recording was another thing. We attempted to do a session or two of his original music, and it took a lot of farking around. One thing I can honestly say pretty much sucks is the emulated stereo outputs - supposed to mimic micing the amp - not quite.
 
warble2 said:
A musician friend of mine uses a AVT 150, I wouldn't say it's complete crap, but to each his own I guess. He's got it sounding pretty decent live, but recording was another thing. We attempted to do a session or two of his original music, and it took a lot of farking around. One thing I can honestly say pretty much sucks is the emulated stereo outputs - supposed to mimic micing the amp - not quite.
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It's not a very big step above the mg series. I recorded mine a ton and always wondered why the guitars didn't sound great. I bought a mesa and suddenly it was easy to make the guitars sound great. I could easily dial in nearly any tone I wanted and it would sound great recorded. Sounds too kinda cheesey but I'm absolutely sold on good amps from now on, makes recording good guitar sounds so much easier.
 
jonnyc said:
Not vital? That's about the craziest logic I've ever heard when it comes to guitar amps. The amp is ABSOLUTELY vital, as is the guitar and the speaker. Trust me, I used to own an AVT and it's complete crap, especially the 150. Get a quality tube amp and you'll discover how vital an amp is.
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He said another Head isn't vital. And my AVT is far from crap.
 
Yes

Yes I agree. When I said another head isn't vital it's because I didn't think the head was the problem, it sounded fine live and so I had no reason to assume that the head had to go in persuit of a better recording sound, though if people think that the head is so bad it must go then maybe I should consider changing it. Though it's hardly crap, crap is a bit over the top.

The main problem I have recording is unwanted noise and stuff, I want the guitars to sound powerful and stuff but without the interfearence you sometimes get. Would something like a pre-amp into my stack help solve this? I checked out that triaxis thing, what equipment would I need to make use of something like that?

I reckon for recording bass and acoustic guitar I may go for an Avalon U5 and just DI it
 
Trust me, I used to own an AVT and it's complete crap, especially the 150.
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My friend has an AVT and I don't see how you could say it sounds like crap? :/

Well, maybe it does when you play through it.
 
jay clarke said:
Yes I agree. When I said another head isn't vital it's because I didn't think the head was the problem, it sounded fine live and so I had no reason to assume that the head had to go in persuit of a better recording sound, though if people think that the head is so bad it must go then maybe I should consider changing it. Though it's hardly crap, crap is a bit over the top.

The main problem I have recording is unwanted noise and stuff, I want the guitars to sound powerful and stuff but without the interfearence you sometimes get. Would something like a pre-amp into my stack help solve this? I checked out that triaxis thing, what equipment would I need to make use of something like that?

I reckon for recording bass and acoustic guitar I may go for an Avalon U5 and just DI it
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If you're getting unwanted noise, it could be your guitar or the wiring in your room. I don't see hwy you'd be using single coils for a John Petrucci sound...so if you're getting hum from your amp with humbuckers theres a serious problem. What guitar are you playing?
 
My .02. Line outs and Di's generally sound like crap. (caveat: di for clean unadulterated signal, nuff said) POD's toneports etc. help. If you want monster tone be it clean, mucho distorto, warm, juicy, you need the guitar-amp-cab-air-mic interaction. I own a POD, a good Di, various gtr amps and do have some experience in the "real" studio. You can achieve good gtr tones with a little effort. Use the resources here and elsewhere, don't be afraid to experiment; whacky stuff can produce great results. To all who want to trash the dudes rig- be mindful of ones own limitations. Be well all.
 
Okay...my comments are geared at the fact that you are shooting for a "top quality" guitar sound, on par with the albums you mentioned.

First of all, an AVT Marshall may not be total crap, but it's not going to deliver a tone like those albums, point blank. You may get close enough to satisfy yourself, but unless you specify what compromises you're willing to live with what else can be said?

Taking that into consideration, here are some things that you could consider vital to an awesome recorded guitar sound in varying degrees.

1 - An excellent sounding guitar that is well intonated.

2 - An excellent player with solid timing and proper technique. This can't be stressed enough. The way someone plays has a huge impact on the quality of the recording...even if it's just the way they strum a chord. A shitty player negates everything else on this list.

3 - A KILLER amp....we've already discussed this. Yes, it really is that important.

4 - Someone who knows what the hell they're doing when they dial in the tone on the amp. This takes experience and experimentation.

5 - An SM57 will do the trick, but many also opt for a high quality LDC or a nice ribbon mic like a Royer 121. DOn't rule out other dynamics like a 421.

6 - Someone with the know how and the ear to put the mic(s) in the right spot.

7 - A nice quality mic pre. Not some 100 dollar "Toob" piece of crap, something respectable. If you really want world class you might as well consider something among the ranks of NEVE, API, Great River, etc.....

8 - High Quality analog to digital convertors (unless you're recording to tape..which I doubt). No, a 150 dollar USB interface does not have high quality convertors. The RME units have a pretty good rep, or a "money" stand alone converter like Lynx, Apogee, etc...

9 - The ability to not destroy it in the mix.

All of these things are VITAL. Sure you can get a great result with less, but not world class. ;)
 
Well this is all very interesting.

I am not actually looking to solely emulate John Petrucci, i only used Train of Thought as an example as I really like his chunky heavy guitar sound on that album, I mentioned Mikael Akerfeld of Opeth's Heavy tone on Ghost reveries, that kicks ass, also I love the heavy guitar tone on Cradle of Filth's Nymphetamine and Damnation and a day even tho i hate those albums.

And I'm not sure that Akerfeld or Cradle all use mesa boogie, If AVT isn't sufficiant for a top class recording tone, then what would people suggest instead? I've been looking at those Triaxis things, what set up would I need with that?
 
get the toneport, or a pod. the both give the same sound. easy, clean.

people dont understand you can get a great sound with a pod, you just have to get it right. expaeriment with different things.
 
danny.guitar said:
My friend has an AVT and I don't see how you could say it sounds like crap? :/

Well, maybe it does when you play through it.
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Well you probably just really haven't heard a good amp, and it's ok, I used the think the AVT sounded fine until I actually heard what an amp is supposed to sound like. Oh and I don't play guitar buddy, but my friend does, has 20 years experience playing, and regularly jams with his uncle who's somewhat well known for jamming with Dave Matthews, so he kinda knows what he's doing. Trust me when I say the AVT is shit, if it wasn't I wouldn't have ever sold it.
 
jonnyc said:
Well you probably just really haven't heard a good amp, and it's ok, I used the think the AVT sounded fine until I actually heard what an amp is supposed to sound like. Oh and I don't play guitar buddy, but my friend does, has 20 years experience playing, and regularly jams with his uncle who's somewhat well known for jamming with Dave Matthews, so he kinda knows what he's doing. Trust me when I say the AVT is shit, if it wasn't I wouldn't have ever sold it.
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I don't think you can catagorically say that any tonal device is shit; its utterly subjective. I play guitar, I like the AVT...I sure dont think it sounds like shit. Sure its not an original Bassman or an Orange Thunderverb....and they're good amps! But it sounds a damn site better than my first Yamaha amp. Its like people who listen to Tom Waits albums and say catagorically that they're shit; the sound is what it is.

Things are rarely that black and white; and alot of it does come down to the players ability (for example, Andy Summers stuck with Solid State amps alot longer than anyone else, and he has always had an unreal tone). I imagine your friends uncle gets a great tone playing through the DMB backline...and thats what you'd expect! Ya get what ya pay for when it comes to intruments and equipment; The AVT gives me the sound I expect for 400 lids, and when I was fortunate enough to play a Fender Hot Rod DeVille, that gave me the tones I expected from an amp costing well over a thousand.
 
tom18222 said:
get the toneport, or a pod. the both give the same sound. easy, clean.

people dont understand you can get a great sound with a pod, you just have to get it right. expaeriment with different things.
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Oh people understand POD's alright. They understand that for practicing or getting ideas down they're fine, but they don't hold a candle to a real amp with a mic in front of it. I wish people would stop trying to fool themselves into believing otherwise.
 
jonnyc said:
I wish people would stop trying to fool themselves into believing otherwise.
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What'd be the point in that? If i hear what I think is a shit sound, I'll say its a shit sound. It might just be that people actually like the sound they get from a pod.
 
Another vote for Mic'd amp for the Guitar-direct in for Bass.
 
TelePaul said:
I don't think you can catagorically say that any tonal device is shit; its utterly subjective. I play guitar, I like the AVT...I sure dont think it sounds like shit. Sure its not an original Bassman or an Orange Thunderverb....and they're good amps! But it sounds a damn site better than my first Yamaha amp. Its like people who listen to Tom Waits albums and say catagorically that they're shit; the sound is what it is.

Things are rarely that black and white; and alot of it does come down to the players ability (for example, Andy Summers stuck with Solid State amps alot longer than anyone else, and he has always had an unreal tone). I imagine your friends uncle gets a great tone playing through the DMB backline...and thats what you'd expect! Ya get what ya pay for when it comes to intruments and equipment; The AVT gives me the sound I expect for 400 lids, and when I was fortunate enough to play a Fender Hot Rod DeVille, that gave me the tones I expected from an amp costing well over a thousand.
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Man, I think you just pwnd me. :D You're right, it's not a terrible amp and actually does have a very nice clean sound to it. It's just the distortion of that amp was lackluster IMO, could never get it to sit right in a mix. BTW the "friends uncle" reference was just to give an idea of the talent level of my friend, he's an amazing guitar player and the only thing that holds him back is his wicked case of ADD.
 
jonnyc said:
Man, I think you just pwnd me. :D You're right, it's not a terrible amp and actually does have a very nice clean sound to it. It's just the distortion of that amp was lackluster IMO, could never get it to sit right in a mix. BTW the "friends uncle" reference was just to give an idea of the talent level of my friend, he's an amazing guitar player and the only thing that holds him back is his wicked case of ADD.
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I'd say the ADD is a bit of a bitch; I've always hated sitting in front of tab books myself! I worked on my tone, especially the distortion; my pedal chain is pretty long.
 
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