Pre-amps in TASCAM consoles

M1Fanatic

Digital whaaa?
Since I've never owned an outboard pre-amp, I'm wondering what I'm missing. I have nothing to compare the pre-amps to built in to the TASCAM M-1516 I'm using.

I've given a lot of thought to buying an outboard pre-amp, but, just how good are the pre-amps in these older TASCAM consoles?

I'm not enough of an idiot to think they would compare to a Neve or UA, but some comments from those with experience with both in-board TASCAM and out-board pre-amps would be appreciated.

I'm thinking along the lines of a UA-610, or the SSL channel strip down the road in a few months time.
 
I presently have or have had at one time the following preamps at my disposal:

  • Tascam M-520
  • Tascam M-308B
  • Tascam MX-80
  • Tascam prototype mixer (early 80's)
  • Tascam US-224
  • Tascam US-122
  • ART Tube MP OPL
  • ART Phantom 1608
  • Behringer UB-802
  • Biamp 12-24
  • Allen & Heath GL-3300-32
  • Yamaha 01X
  • Yamaha i88x
  • Presonus Digimax FS
  • Presonus Digimax 96K

I think there are probably a couple other stragglers out there that I just don't remember. You can see that none of it is boutique, some of it is definitely budget.

What I can tell you is that in real-world recording situations I've wanted the i88x, the Digimax FS and 96K to be everything that the adverts push them to be. They are good, don't get me wrong, but the real test for me is a vocalist and I have, on numerous occasions jumped to the M-520 or the prototype, or even the MX-80. That occured just in the past couple months in a location session...the 96K sounded so grainy. I couldn't stand it and pulled the MX-80 out and it solved all my problems. Never had a chance to use the M-308B in any recording but I am 100% confident I would have loved it. Again, not boutique but I could care less about boutique when the sound is not happening, the clock is ticking and the vocalist is getting itchy...I switch to one of those tried and true pre's and everything sounds nice.

The i88x and Digimax FS are currently in the stable and I'll use those often too. The i88x is transparent and clean and so that is nice for ambient micing or for applications where a quiet transparent pre is needed...same with the Digimax FS but it has a little more character to it but it doesn't do it for me for vocal work. The instrument pre's are nice in it though, although my favorite instrument pre was still in my M-520. The 01X's pre's are standard fare and pretty noisy at high gain, BUT...

I got one of my best drum overhead sounds with some $5 bargain Starpower dynamic mics and those 01X pre's. I was trying for rough and it came out sounding awesome.

You can spend all day/week/month/year/your life disecting and making suppositions, and maybe I'd think different had I worked with boutique gear, but I'm entering a season where I'd rather find out what can be accomplished with what I have and I'm finding that none of my gear is in the way of great moments being captured so I'd better get busy making great moments rather than figuring out how I'm going to get the piece of gear that will "magically do it for me". :rolleyes: I realize that's not where you are going with this...I'm not trying to lecture at all, but rather just sharing a more full perspective on where I'm at.

Hope that helps.
 
Thanks for the reply.

I'm not unhappy with the pre-amps in the console, it's just that I don't have anything to compare them to to know how good or mediocre they sound.

I've recorded some really great sounding tracks with the on-board pre-amps using Sennheiser microphones. Each has a different sound of course, and I know that a pre will do this as well depending on what you buy.

I don't know how transparent the pre's are in the TASCAM, if they model some famous pre-, or if they are a proprietary design of TASCAM's own making.

I'm more or less thinking along the lines of Grace, UA, SSL, Great River, etc. Not having knowingly heard any of these pre-amps, I'm taking a chance on getting one I like and one that will give me the vocal recordings I hear in my head. I don't mind spending a few dollars on a good peice of equipment that I like, or at least that I hope I'll like.

Thanks for your insight.
 
You can spend all day/week/month/year/your life dissecting and making suppositions, and maybe I'd think different had I worked with boutique gear, but I'm entering a season where I'd rather find out what can be accomplished with what I have and I'm finding that none of my gear is in the way of great moments being captured so I'd better get busy making great moments rather than figuring out how I'm going to get the piece of gear that will "magically do it for me". :rolleyes: I realize that's not where you are going with this...I'm not trying to lecture at all, but rather just sharing a more full perspective on where I'm at.

That is too my own thought about it. It def can come off as lecturing but it is really not our intention but rather to potentially steer people away from anything which can distract the music making process.

I think that unless you have some really old, cheap, antiquated, "radio shack" type gear, it would stand to reason to upgrade (even tho on such "low end" miracles can still be accomplished by skilled hands).

I can safely say that the vast majority of us can see much higher improvement in our recordings by way of simple use of better technique and honing our skills, than it is to buy some outboard gear.

I've had a chance to use a number of mixers and even at one time dabbled in expensive pres but nothing will change your sound more than technique will. Spending your money on unnecessary and possibly expensive outboard gear is just hype that the manufacturers use to take your money, "that you will finally achieve that polished sound you're looking for" 'cause, hey, pros use only the best to get that sound. It's all a lie. Don't fall into that trap.

Bottom line, if you have the skills, as a recording engineer and musician, no one will know if you used an old TEAC mixer or a $2000 preamp for your recordings. Save your money, those TASCAM consoles are good enough. Anything more, IMHO, is just splitting hairs.

The sound that you're after comes more from technique rather that any piece of gear.
 
Thank you. That's what I was hoping someone would say.

As I said, I'm not at all unhappy with the pre-amps in the TASCAM, so I guess I'm doing it right. I just thought there might be something I'm missing out on.

I actually think these pre-amps sound pretty good to me, but as I've said before I've nothing to compare them to.
 
a question close to my heart.....

Been crazy here at work so I've not been around much these last few months. Not meaning to slight anyone. This question begs me to take a break.

Provided that a preamp is not junk or broken to start with there are a few things to consider. First is that for a single track almost any preamp will work. It will have its own color that may or may not be what you want. And this color can be "adjusted" with minor EQ.

Reading the reviews and listening to the shootouts may allow you to start hearing the differences that many rave about. Words like muddy, gritty, scooped all do have audible sources. But, the differences are not profound to the casual listener or to me when I have the windows open in the car. But they are there.

IN general you could pick a preamp that has the color (or lack) works for you and be done with it. I think that most any of the Tascam console mic pre's are at lease unoffensive and in general quite good. This is extra true if the caps in the audio path were replaced/upgraded and perhaps an opamp upgrade would make them quite nice.

Where outboard preamps shine is in 2 cases the first is when you want uncompromising capture of the audio you are recording. This is regardless of the coloration the material needs. hard rock, API, NEVE , Vintage sound vintage preamp, crystal clear acoustic, classical then go for NPNG, Hardy, etc to name a few. Can't pay then select the very nice and oh so close to the top preamps like Great River MP1NV or event the Fivefish line.

The second case is where you need each track to stand out in a multitrack mixdown. Lessor quality preamps add a bunch of mud that when mixed together make the mud pronounced and the whole mix (um er) indistinct. High quality preamps mix together with positive synergy.

I don't do much multitrack recording so I don't have a need for that. I do have a M520 in the "studio" and a Presonus M80 for remote (OPA627, Jensen upgrades).

The most typical recording I do is Blumlein pair to a DIY Great River MP2 (not NV) to 1/2" 2 track tape at 15 ips. The GR is very clean with little color and almost no noise. I would like to put a NPNG in its place.

Regards, Ethan

PS someday I'll put up the clips I made of the Presonus in various configurations of Stock vs Jensen transformers, NE5532 vs OPA627 IC and some combinations) as well as the GR and a few more preamps that I'm working on. Those other preamps are the holdup. In the works are a DMP3, Modded DMP3, the M520, Yamaha PM1000, JLM twin servo, Hardy M1 clone.

But then again it is me singing on the clips and you might not want to hear that! :eek:
 
Yeah...this is all good/great info to lay on your mental table.

I've learned a lot from cjacek about what you can do by taking the time to experiment with mic placement. There is SO much variation you can get just by mic placement alone and now my habit is to move all around the source and listen with one ear plugged until I find a spot that sounds like what I want to capture. If it doesn't sound right on playback then I try to move the mic a little toward a spot that had a character that compensates for what is needed.

Another GREAT trick, when mic'ing a single source, is to use two mics placed at different distances and then enjoy the magic of natural eq via phase distortion as you vary the levels between the two mics on playback. This alone opens a whole new world of options and you can do it with what you have.

Sure, you can get lost in these details so only do it while its fun...if you're just creating another hair-splitting venture then scrap it and go with what you know but there is a LOT of color and variation you can get just by using phase distortion as a tool and/or varying mic placement.

I've really gotten away from using eq. I always knew in my gut that it was better to avoid if you can but my tendency as a product of the fastfoodDAWgeneration was to go eq-happy and plugin-happy, but I see eq differently now and really the main things I like about the eq on my prototype board are the two low-cut filters...I don't use much more than that usually anymore.

ANOTHER comment: IF I was looking for an outboard preamp, I think the feature I would want the most is switcheable or variable impedance...I've been using some different LDC's but all are similar and come out of 797 Audio but they sound VASTLY different and I believe impedance matching has a lot to do with it...not that I want variable impendance to match a mic and a pre, but again as a color variation tool...like the electronic equivalent of repositioning the mic and between those two functions you can do SO much without having to even touch the eq and introducing the complex phase distortions that come along with that. I'm speaking about recording here because live work is a completely different story.

BUT...the market has pushed and pushed for more better cleaner/quieter/transparent preamps and as it turns out what I woke up to is that I don't WANT cleaner/transparent...I want something that has *some* character and something that *works*. There are plenty of very technically proficient folks on this forum...I've learned a TON, not the least of which is that I have a lot to learn, but one member in particular some time back had some comments on Teac and more or less stated a respect for their designs. Not boutique, right? But well-designed, sensible reliable circuits with a touch of character. They WORK and there is substantial evidence that they are smart conservative products...I'm talking about the 80's and 90's mixers mostly. But this particular forum member has a lot of experience and knowledge about boutique stuff at least in my feeble estimation and to hear (read) him lifting Teac up in a rightful way caught my attention. This was regarding a 388 that had been TOTALLY whacked out...mod-hog-heaven but he was, like, "why?" Basically he could see certain things being an improvement but that for the types of designs Teac employed they are in balance and good designs and why mess with them to such a degree? That and another member that really helped me understand that a piece of gear is the sum of its parts. Change the parts and it becomes something different which may leave something behind that you liked that was the result of noise/distortion/slow opamps...things we're always trying to do more/better/faster. He was right.

Yes I'm going on and on about modding and you are just wanting some perspective on your 1500-series board. :o:drunk:

But the point is that you've got a good mixer there. Lots of usable functionality with well thought-out circuit topology. Reliable with its own flavor. If it was me I'd be toying with mic placement.

BUT, if you do intend to look outside your 1500 box for a specialty preamp, Ethan is a great one to listen to. He does have an ear and a passion for the topic and the technical background and knowledge and experience behind his thoughts, so its not a load of suppositions and hype-thoughts from somebody else.

Good luck and above all, have fun!

BTW, I really do think the 1500 mixers are neat. Tremendous value and functionality. All you have to do is look at the market on them and then go to your favorite internet audio gear retailer and look at the mixers in that same price bracket and it is just stupid-silly what people are buying when they could have the features, performance, reliability and style/character of a vintage (200, 300, 500, 1500, 1600 etc.) Tascam mixer.

Take it with a grain of salt but the guy that bought my M-520, Richard Swift was genuinely jazzed by the sound of it...his tech was also impressed with it who's been doing it for 30 years and been around Neve and MCI boards. Plus, the guy who owns and operates Fairfax Recordings in CA. was impressed with it and his board is one of the EMI consoles out of Abbey Road Studios...tons of drooly gear there.

Am I saying that Tascam mixers are better? No. And anybody that wants to take the above paragraph and build up some internet rumor that Tascam is better than _____, whatever. The point is that the mixers hold their own when you step outside the hype and the haters and the value of getting to know what you have and exploring its sound and what it can do for you is underrated.

There are limitations. I'm not a Behringer basher, but I did have a UB-802 that just didn't work for me...it absolutely sucked the life out of drums...don't know how it did that but it was remarkable. I'm sure it was good for other applications, and it worked, but it didn't work for me. So I moved on from that one.
 
I have a M3700 and the preamps sound pretty good. I also owed a M2524 in the past and even though the pres in that did not sound as good as the M3700 I record a lot of good stuff and a lot of Commercial CD's were record through that console.

I think that Tascam Consoles are very underrated and were much better built that some of the new stuff now.

Cheers
Alan
 
Since you asked for a comparison between Tascam and the UA610. If I may without stepping on any toes.

I used M308's for years. Clean console. I'll say again. Clean. I recorded dozens of songs on it. All clean. The 80's sound. Did they have any defining character ? Nope.

Went to a DM24. Clean console. Even cleaner that the M308. Any defining character at all ? Nope.

I recorded on a Amek to a APR24 in the late 80's. Clean console. The console had a very soft soft sounding character to my ears. That would be great for doing maybe Nora Jones and some jazz. Probably some soft rock too.

I recorded a few songs on a Allen and Heath Brennell System 8 to a MS-16. Sounded clean and sorta punchy with somewhat useful eq. Slight British character. But not much.

My brother has a M3700. Clean console. But he's using a MCI JH24 - so it's Biiiiiiiiiggg.

So to make a comparison, 4 Years ago I bought a 6176. Awesome preamp. Getting much closer to what I was hoping all along that my work would sound like. Just does what it does in a outstanding manner. Everything recorded through it is warmer and larger sounding. I plan to add a second to the rack very soon.

2 years ago, I finally recognized and decided that the sound I was missing and really wanted all along was the very British sounding Trident crunch. All warm and fuzzy. I thought hard about getting a Trident 80 but they are so old now and all that recaping would cost a fortune and probably take a year.

I took a chance and ordered a Toft ATB32 as a member of the pilot program. Site unseen. They were still designing it. But we were assured it would have the Trident eq. Damn!! How I wish I could have had that when I was the age most of you guys are.

Take it from the old guy. Whatever it takes to get the sound you need or want, just go for it. Or you will wish you had later - Unless of course your music is a sort of sideline just to kill time hobby. But even then, when you compare it to what some guys spend on bass fishing or golf, it can be a bargain. Plus, if you really concentrate on the higher end boutique gear, you will receive a fair amout of your money back when you sell it. OTOH, if Tascam gear was really everything we hoped (and wished) it could be, I doubt it would resell for only pennies on the dollar.

I am working on a song now with my sister. I will post a Mp3 when I get the mix finished in a week or two. The post will be in the form of a poll question. Is it analog or digital ?

Regards,

Danny
 
Well from what I've gathered from all of your replies, and considering that I'm happy with the way my vocals and guitars sound with the TASCAM pre's, I'll just save the money for a different purchase and continue on with the console pre's.

I've used this board for ten years now and I've never had any complaints. The routing is exceptional for a console in this class. Not even Mackie can touch this. Oh, wait, they weren't even around when this board was made. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the confidence in my choice of equipment. I've been a TASCAM user for over 30 years and have never had a complaint, just an occasional question. Thanks.
 
Since I've never owned an outboard pre-amp, I'm wondering what I'm missing. I have nothing to compare the pre-amps to built in to the TASCAM M-1516 I'm using.

I've given a lot of thought to buying an outboard pre-amp, but, just how good are the pre-amps in these older TASCAM consoles?

I'm not enough of an idiot to think they would compare to a Neve or UA, but some comments from those with experience with both in-board TASCAM and out-board pre-amps would be appreciated.

I'm thinking along the lines of a UA-610, or the SSL channel strip down the road in a few months time.

I've got no experience with the M-1516 but have quite a bit with the pres in older boards from the Model 2 through the Model 15 and the original 2600 series. I'm currently re-mixing stuff originally recorded on a Model 15. Aside from the Model 2, which I found to be total crap, the others were neither bad nor great. Using a better outboard mic pre made the work go very much easier as I found I needed much less processing to achieve the sound I wanted on the finished product. As far as I'm concerned, the real test for mic preamps is drums. If you can get a good drum sound, you can get a good anything else sound.
 
I've got no experience with the M-1516 but have quite a bit with the pres in older boards from the Model 2 through the Model 15 and the original 2600 series. I'm currently re-mixing stuff originally recorded on a Model 15. Aside from the Model 2, which I found to be total crap, the others were neither bad nor great. Using a better outboard mic pre made the work go very much easier as I found I needed much less processing to achieve the sound I wanted on the finished product. As far as I'm concerned, the real test for mic preamps is drums. If you can get a good drum sound, you can get a good anything else sound.

I've never mic'd up a kit before as I don't have the room and I haven't been behind a kit in over 20 years. I do like the way everything else sounds from acoustic guitar, to vocals, to electric guitar amps though this console.

Thanks for saving me a grand+. Very good information about the TASCAM consoles.

I have a Model 30 that came with the purchase of my 38, but I've never used it. Seemed a bit archaic to me at the time and I had already bought the M-1516 before the 38/30 purchase arrived. I still have the M-30. I may use it for sub-mixes down the road if I ever get a chance to mic up a kit.
 
I've got no experience with the M-1516 but have quite a bit with the pres in older boards from the Model 2 through the Model 15 and the original 2600 series. I'm currently re-mixing stuff originally recorded on a Model 15. Aside from the Model 2, which I found to be total crap, the others were neither bad nor great. Using a better outboard mic pre made the work go very much easier as I found I needed much less processing to achieve the sound I wanted on the finished product. As far as I'm concerned, the real test for mic preamps is drums. If you can get a good drum sound, you can get a good anything else sound.

Well, you have to compare apples to apples, some Tascam gear was the cheaper home studio stuff and some semi pro to pro gear. A M3700 was 5 times more expensive than a M2524, A M2524 was more expensive than the M1515. I don't know the 2600 but it would not have been "total crap", maybe it was the way you recorded it.

True, everybody want a Neve, SSL or something similar, but who can afford it and good results can be achieved from cheaper equipment when care is taken. Remember this is a Home Recording Forum. I also did a live in the studio recording Saturday, I had 17 Desk Pres in use, would have cost a bit to buy separate pres for this.

alan.
 
Well, you have to compare apples to apples, some Tascam gear was the cheaper home studio stuff and some semi pro to pro gear. A M3700 was 5 times more expensive than a M2524, A M2524 was more expensive than the M1515. I don't know the 2600 but it would not have been "total crap", maybe it was the way you recorded it.

True, everybody want a Neve, SSL or something similar, but who can afford it and good results can be achieved from cheaper equipment when care is taken. Remember this is a Home Recording Forum. I also did a live in the studio recording Saturday, I had 17 Desk Pres in use, would have cost a bit to buy separate pres for this.

alan.

Re-read my original post. I said the Model 2 was total crap, not the 2600. Among other things, the damn thing was an RF magnet. The front-end performance of the others I mentioned was quite respectable though not stellar. That being said, I would not want to go back to using those mic pres again.
 
Take it from the old guy. Whatever it takes to get the sound you need or want, just go for it. Or you will wish you had later - Unless of course your music is a sort of sideline just to kill time hobby. But even then, when you compare it to what some guys spend on bass fishing or golf, it can be a bargain. Plus, if you really concentrate on the higher end boutique gear, you will receive a fair amout of your money back when you sell it. OTOH, if Tascam gear was really everything we hoped (and wished) it could be, I doubt it would resell for only pennies on the dollar.

Danny, total respect to what you're saying but this line of thinking is a dangerous one for many of us. Too many people put too much stock into equipment. Most simply are not nearly at the skill or competency level, myself included, both as a musician and recording engineer, to warrant upgrades.

It would make more sense to concentrate on honing one's skills, with the gear that they have or perhaps doing upgrades on the basis of really needing to, rather than hoping for some miracle with yet another piece of gear.

This is a fine line tho and people often opt for upgrades when they have no business to. They remain mediocre, with a closet full of expensive / boutique gear, never fully exploring their recording talents.

I think that the regrets would come, rather, in the form of not fully realizing one's talents, not that one didn't get this preamp / mixer instead of another and all that the gear does, when not in check, is distract.

I realize that there is a quality difference to the gear and if you can afford, great but all I'm saying is that when you have reasonable quality tools, and making music is all that's important to you and you can't make a hit record or one that can compete with anything out-there, then it's not the gear but you.

The saying that if you can't make a hit record with a TASCAM or FOSTEX, you're not going to do it with a STUDER or a 50K vintage console, rings so true. Really, there are other reasons for TASCAM gear not having the resale value and it has nothing to do with its capability.

I still reason that the improvement one can make to one's skills will vastly overshadow any differences in the quality of the gear. The people, IMHO, that can truly appreciate those "differences" are ones who are either so far ahead of the pack, recording wise, with years of experience or one's who just enjoy boutique stuff.

Again, I'm not talking about overly hissy, thin sounding, distorting, cheap electronics, ala consumer cassette decks 'cause in that case it really would make sense to upgrade but when you enter the TEAC / TASCAM world, everything else, IMHO, is just splitting hairs.

I will keep on saying, if ones goal is to produce great music, that given expert skill level, several dynamic mics and a good 4 track cassette, the quality of the end product will overshadow mediocre skills and a 2" Studer with a 50K console and the greatest of them all outboard gear and studio space. Unfortunately, IMHO, many struggling musicians are in that mediocre category, either as a musician and / or recording engineer.

I wish more musicians would research / ask about / study / practice recording and not go off with yet another "which sub 1K preamp would you recommend" question.
 
Before I start worrying about comparing my 520 to goldplater supereingang whatsit, I need to chase down all the ground gremlins causing hum all over the place. . .

I've bought a few PCB's from the prodigy-pro white/black market, with the goal of making something similar to something expensive. Not because I really want a boutiquey piece, but because there is this sick part of me that finds wagging a soldering iron around is enjoyable. :spank:
 
When the smoke comes off the iron heavy it floats up into the work lamp and out the vent holes in the top...yessssss. :drunk:

Burnt hair stinks, but the smell reminds me to remember where my iron is sitting before I reach for stuff. :o

Yup. ;)
 
Re-read my original post. I said the Model 2 was total crap, not the 2600. Among other things, the damn thing was an RF magnet. The front-end performance of the others I mentioned was quite respectable though not stellar. That being said, I would not want to go back to using those mic pres again.

LMAO.... i used a model 2 for my keys back in the late 70's... i boutght it originaly to go with my 3340s... but it severed pretty well as keys mixer except there were several clubs in the st louis area where i would get terrible rf... you could solo an unused ch and bump it for break music :eek:... all it needed was a ferrite ring on the power cord and it became pristine...
 
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