"Popular Music Sound"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Michael Jones
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JuSumPilgrim said:
I think POD's drum sound sucks. I think they suck. I cant recall a group with less talent (wait, blink182??!!!)

Can't agree. Here's a rap-rock-emo band with a guy that can both rap and sing well. He could teach a Mr. Fred Durst a thing or two about vocal technique ;) Listen to "Satellite" (title track) to see what I mean. Their post-production mastering is just the same slag every band in their position has. :/

Also a minor rant...(a bit O.T.): Seems like bands with positive messages are on people's shit list. Yeah, for instance, I don't really like "With Arms Wide Open", but that band has some really cool non-radio tracks. POD has some great songs on that CD that will never air. In contrast, every time I spin a Staind CD I wanna jump off a building :):) Their sound is fine, but the message is too damn depressing. Ditto Korn. Damn kids that never grew up ;);)

All those bands have that mashed pertaters sound that really tires out the ears after about 10 minutes. Unfortunate thing, that.

For a really great heavy sound that's not mashed, I love listening to Tool's "Opiate" -- much of that is live, but it has a really interesting, yet odd, production to it. It's as fun to hear the production as it is the music.


Chad
 
Here's a post on Silkworm's msg board by Steve Albini. Parts of it seem relevant to the discussion here...

Author: steve albini
In Reply To: quibbles and bits (posted by scobie)
Subject: RE: quibbles and bits

First time caller, long time listener.

Thank you all for listening so closely to Silkworm's Italian Platinum. Those of you who are complaining about how not-loud it is may find a discussion of mastering to be of interest.

There are (basically) two mastering paradigms: Representational (intended for the listener at home to have the experience the band have listening to their music in the studio) and Stylized (intended to give the listener an "improved" or "exaggerated" version of the master.

It is impossible to simply "copy the master flat" onto a consumer medium (LP or CD) for several reasons, which I will address individually.

The biggest problem is dynamic range. CDs have an absolute dynamic range of about 90dB, but because resolution (sound reproduction accuracy) falls off by half (one bit) with every 4dB of level drop, the usable dynamic range of a CD is actually only about 30dB. Sounds recorded much lower than this are distorted due to the coarseness with which the waveforms are reproduced with fewer bits.

LPs have a much wider useable dynamic range, about 60dB or so, though dirty, poorly pressed and scratched records have a worse noise floor, limiting their dynamic range to about that of a CD or a bit better.

If a master were simply reproduced dynamically "flat" (no change in dynamic range) on CD, then the quiet bits would sound weird. For LPs, this is much less of a problem, so only in cases of very long or loud program material is limiting or compression required, but for CDs, something must be done to keep the signal in the "useable" dynamic range.

Dynamic range is generally limited by one of three means: Limiting, compression or multiband compression.

Limiting is a quick, automatic suppression of transient peaks (tiny fractions of a second where individual waveform excursions would be too large to be sampled accurately -- called "clipping"). This allows the program level to be raised somewhat, keeping more of the quieter moments within the useable range, while avoiding disasterous clipping of the transient peaks.

Compression is an overall reduction of dynamic range by "automatic volume control" means -- as the signal gets gradually louder, the compressor lowers the gain in the circuit, making the loud parts less loud (and, in effect, making the quiet parts less quiet).

Multiband compression is splitting the signal into separate frequency bands (bass, midrange and treble, for example) and compressing each before recombining them into a composite signal. This has the effect of making tonal changes in the music less noticeable. Taken to its extreme (an infinite number of bands compressing infinitely), this would result in any input signal turning into white noise at the output.

Since songs are generally mixed one at a time, there are naturally level and tonal differences that become apparent only when they are sequenced together into a final album.

If a master is reproduced tonally "flat," then a song that sounds loud and aggressive when heard in isolation may not have the same impact if it follows another song with an even louder coda. A song may sound too dull or too bright when listened to in the context of an album. These differences are adjusted in the mastering stage to make the album as a whole sound as intended, using an equalizer and level controls.

There are other, more arcane matters addressed in mastering (groove depth, land spacing, elliptical dynamics, etc. in vinyl, glitch suppression, DC offsets and assembly in CD mastering), but that's the lion's share of it.

Mastering is always a play of these matters against one another. Limiting and compression usually rob the music of some of its transients ("brightness" or "energy"), which can be simulated by adding high-end or midrange EQ. Strong bass signals require a lot of electrical energy, and may make a signal less "apparently loud," which will require a compensation in actual level, etc.

In the Stylized paradigm, the mastering engineer will try to present the "best" version of the album he can imagine, regardless of how different it is from the master tape. "Best," in this context, usually means "loudest" and "most aggressively jump-out-of-the-speakers in your face."

In the Representational paradigm, there is a presumption that the master tape is pretty much what the artist intends, with contextual problems solved, and maybe a few specific adjustments (decided-on in advance after repeated listening).

No piece of pie awarded for guessing which paradigm Silkworm has been in for its entire career.

Making a master "louder" cannot be a simple matter of turning up the volume, as the signal would overload. Simulating extra "loudness" is done by making the sound thinner (our ears are most sensitive to sounds in the midrange -- around 1kHz, much less so in the bass region), compressing it (so the quietest bits are brought up in level to be as loud as the loud bits), or adding distortion (called "exciting" the signal, it is actually adding distortion products which are harmonically related to the music to replace treble content lost through compression).

If you could sit in the mastering room and hear the effect these processes have on music, you would be aghast that musicians who care about their art would allow such damage to be done to their records.

The least destructive mastering allows a small improvement in apparent volume in exchange for a relatively un-fucked-up sound quality.

I know for a fact that Italian Platinum gained 4dB of actual level and probably another couple "apparent" dB in tone during the mastering process. Tim heard the effect of 6dB of level boost (and accompanying limiting), and the sound quality suffered, so he backed off.

Honestly, your Silkworm record may not be as "loud" as Tool or a friggin' Afghan Whigs CD, but if it was, it would sound worse, and you wouldn't want to listen to it as much.

It's not a trick, it's part of the unforgiving and difficult process of making a record.

best,
-steve albini
 
yeah...

...what is EMO, anyways? Heh. NOt asking, it's more rhetorical. Skate punks seem to think its that vans/warped tour sound. Others seem to think it's that CREED sound. Bands all over mp3.com and garageband.com seem to be confused, and list their stuff as either... not too consistent :p

I figure if it's EMOtional music, it's emo :D :D :D


Chad
 
this is a very fascinating discussion....

I don't exactly know what the sound is we are talking about here...

Would I be more likely to notice it on my (fairly nice) stereo, or on my HR824s?

I'll be listening tomorrow...

However, maybe I *do* notice when it is *not* there. Becuase the overall mix sounds more...neutral....and, though it normally catches me off gaurd when i first put it on...it tends to sound better/richer after listening for a while..

2 albums I have recently been listening to that sound this way to me: Norah Jones "come away with me" and Radiohead "the bends"

of course, you would think maybe the bends would be "fucked up" as well...but, doesn't sound like it to me. Actually, there is some really interesting non-commercial sounding stuff on there recording/mix wise.

But, I'm a total novice...anyone have any opinions on those particular albums in regards to this?

And still...looking for that "perfect example" of where I could hear this sound.....based on what I am reading pretty good chance it will be on the new Red Hot Chili Peppers album in a couple days...

Hmm, theres an interesting one - is this sound on Blood Sugar Sex Magic? I've always considered that a pretty "true" representation of the recordings. Again, kind of in the dark here.

-wes

By the way Michael - Gwen Stephanie...hehe, that is funny :)
 
to get back on topic...

...(myself, anyway)... I do feel you on this, Michael. You're saying that "conceptually", it's like hearing a constant cymbal sound -- not a literal cymbal.

Yeah, I do notice ear fatigue -- even when listening to these mashed discs at low levels. You get used to that hyped sound, though, so it's difficult to conceptualize. If you understand how mastering processors work, it's like slightly boosting the low and hi dials on a Finalizer Express. Your level remains at zero; you mash that dynamic range to about 3db, and that's the sound. :rolleyes:

After learning a bit of critical listening, you come to appreciate a larger dynamic range. IMO most of the public doesn't actively "listen" to their music. If it's loud and has a great beat, it's more energizing ... kind of just half-assed "hearing" it, not "listening".


Chad
 
wes, it's funny that you mention the bends as one of the more neutral albums...... I actually find it to be fairly trebly, and in very brief isolated incidences, a little on the harsh side. I think OK Computer is a much more natural sounding album, if not a slightly stylized "natural" sound.
 
i dont "feel" any of you but i can dig where youre comin from!

albini makes a LOT of sense. always does.

the sound in question is not high fidelity. it is a "filling up" as was mentioned before of the high frequency range to give an exciting sound.

the little kids get SOOOOO excited over that sound! if its not there it sucks!

you could have a reverb of infinite duration and limited frequency range and just plaster that over the entire tune. that way you wouldnt have reverb tails but you would have that soundfill.

not bad eh?

im hip to that jive!

i like to fill in that range sometimes too but i do it with bright sounding shakers (maracas) and tambourine and maybe some metallic scratching percussion like metal guiro or cabasa. if you can get the sound constant it will have a similar effect but is completely natural!
 
HUH?
This is an old thread, I'm surprised it got ressurected.Stephanie, Stephanii, you knew what I meant.
 
wow...this *is* an old thread...never would have known...still seems immediately relevant..

I'm really curious to start hearing this sound in stuff.

I think about the Bends.....on the heavier songs...like Just, it does sound harsh...

I guess the main part I think is neutral about it is the vocals...

they always have seemed a little "dull" to me compared to typical pop records.
 
I thought that the secret to recording was acurate high and low end reproduction. Personally I like the crisp bright sound that most "pop" music gets especially a female vocal track. I think it sounds clear and very defined.
 
I'll tell you exactly what it is. Its the multi-band compressor used by the radio station. I produced and recorded a group that gets airplay a couple times a day on our local pop music station. The mix I sent them is a good, clean mix--not overmastered at all. The first time I heard it on the radio, I realized how radio alters the sound of a recording. Everything was seriously compressed to crap. That *glossy* sound is the result of a multi-band compressor with the ratio so high, and the threshold so low, that it brings every little detail up to full in-your-face volume, and the result sounds like a persistent "hiss" at certain frequencies.

That's my 2 cents.
 
radio yes.

not only do they squash everything to hell but they EQ it out the ass as well!

they want it to sound "good" on cheap car stereos. radio is not high fidelity.


for some of us the secret is a striving for accuracy but even then we use distorting devices like compression... distortion is unavoidable.

most rock and pop recordings dont try for a "natural" sound.

ok that reverb i was talking about with the infinite duration. you could EQ on the high end to make it airy and then add a light flange. hook it up to a compressor sidechain to make it louder when the music is louder.

:p
 
pretty much what I said, cloudchamber. So, we agree? :D

Jeap, I know it's fun to ride the butts of guys like me -- cuz we type funny ;) (remember "I feel you, Michael"?) but your post agrees with mine, too. Those Finalizers have the three quote-unquote "eq" knobs. You adjust the spectral balance with those. Want more low? More low and high? This does that -- plus it squashes the dynamic range when on the "soft clip" option. Depending on how you trim the input, then the output, that is how much dynamic range comes out of that box.

Just 2 more pennies, ;)


Chad
 
but it isn't just radio. I still havn't been able to really pick it out...like on vocal tracks...what makes them sound "million dollar". I don't understand why pink noise would make something sound more expensive...hehe...

or...why a homestudio can't replicate the trick.
 
wes480 said:
wow...this *is* an old thread...never would have known...still seems immediately relevant..

I'm really curious to start hearing this sound in stuff.

I think about the Bends.....on the heavier songs...like Just, it does sound harsh...

I guess the main part I think is neutral about it is the vocals...

they always have seemed a little "dull" to me compared to typical pop records.

I can understand what you mean about the vocals. compared to the ridiculously and unrealistically crisp vocals of pop groups and what not nowadays, it does seem like a rather "dull" sound. but then I realized, that's just how it's supposed to be.
Thom recorded the vocals to Planet Telex on a 58, piss drunk on the floor in the fetal position. THAT'S talent!

The vocals on "Bulletproof.... I Wish I Was" are some of the best ever, though. Everytime I hear that song... shivers.
 
Vota - yes...that was my point...

I like the vocal sound in the bends...but, maybe it doesn't have that "pink noise" that this thread is talking about? that's why i brought it up...

ah, I love blame it on your black star....whatever that song is called...track 10
 
Ok, I'm the newb, and now I gotta know what "Pink noise" is, so someone show me their dictionary definition and enlighten me!
 
jeap said:
it takes talent to be drunk?

no, but it does to be drunk AND sing the keeper vocal tracks on a song like Planet Telex, and in the fetal position.
 
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