Please Listen, and try to help!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Michael Jones
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Michael Jones

Michael Jones

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I have been trying to record a grand piano for some time now. Usually the results are less than stellar.
I recently bought a new piano, a 7'-2" Boston, Semi Concert Grand.
The attached file is a short recording of me playing it.

I used 2 Neumann TLM-103's in an ORTF config, splayed at about 110 deg. placed about a foot above and in front of the curve of the grand, with the lid up.

The mics run to an ART PRO MPA Tube Mic pre. On both channels of the mic pre the input is set to about +15db
and the outputs to 0. There's a high pass filter on the ART, and thats set to about 65Hz.

From there the signal runs to my Yamaha O1V Digital mixer. All effects and EQ are turned off on the O1V. An optical interface links the O1V to the PC.

The signal is then routed to my PC where I use Steinberg's "Nuendo" recording software, and Nuendo's 96/52 audio card to record at 24 bit.

No effects in Nuendo are used, I wanted you all to hear this with out the influence of any processing.

OK, here's my perceived problem:
If you listen to this, there seems to be an incredible amount of reverb going on here, and I can't tell if its just room acoustics or my entire setup. It just seems that this much reverberation can't be commiing soley from the room, or could it?

(I had to attach this as an MP3, so there will be some noticable degredation in the sound quality, but I think you'll get the big picture.)

Thanks, any feedback will be greatly appreciated!
 

Attachments

Sounds like the mics are too far away, are they directly over the strings? If you are going for a room sound try putting the stereo pair closer to the strings and setting up a third mic further back just for ambiance, then mix the three.
 
Recording grands is a question of trial and error.
They have a natural big sound. The room you record in will also have an influence.

Try using the same setup as you are currently using, but put the lid on the lowest setting (from the sound I gather its all the way open). Get preferably a comforter, or some blankets, and cover the lid as well as the open side. See what that sounds like.

Post the results, if it doesn't work I will give you some other things to try.
 
I leave it to sjoko2 to give you some more options.
I just wanted to ask about the highpass.
What did you mean by knocking it on the head? to make it work?. If he is not mixing it with other instruments,
I would disable the filter all together. Why thin out the piano sound. I would only apply such a filter in the context of a mix.

There must be over 15 mic positions were you can reposition the mics configuration for a different result
not to mention that a slight mic move will make a drastic change on a piano. Just sum the signal to mono and you'll see the change after every slight move.

Have you checked for phase problems as well ?
 
knock it on the head = take it out!!!! Don't use it! Get rid of it! (sorry - an englism) :>)

There are infinate means of milking a grand, and a 7'2" Boston sounds big.

If he placed the mics where he indicated, he should [theoretiaclly] not have a phasing problem.

Also, even though the mics are not far from the keyboard, the room comes into play. Listening to the sample [which is a bit too hot Michael] it seems to me that the grand is in a small'ish room without acoustic treatment. A lot of the sound is therefore ambient sound. That's why I advised him to try and throw something over the grand and close the lid to the lowest setting, which should give a more direct sound.

Its difficult to record a grand, best to have either a well dampened smaller room, or a huge volume room. The latter is obviously the prefered one, as it allows the sound to escape naturally, which means that mics close to the grand produce a more direct signal, without a lot of ambiance from the room.

We've got a very special full size Yamaha, and I can't wait to get it in the new place, as soon as its ready! The large tracking room with 22' high ceilings should make it sound awsome.
 
Thanks for all the helpful insight guys.

I've tried micing the piano with the mics inside, closer to the strings, but that yields a lot of hammer noise; an undiserable effect for my style of playing. I guess I'll just have to find a happy medium in there somewhere.

I don't think I can actually turn off the high pass filter, its integrated into the mic pre, but i could turn it all the way down?? yes? no? maybe?

sjoko2, you're right, the lid is all the way open, good ears! The grand is in a smallish room, 15'x17'x10'h. The room does have some acoustic treatment, but i think it needs a llittle more sound dampening.

sjoko2, you said that the signal was too hot. Forgive me for not being up on industry lingo, but do you mean the input levels are too high? Since most, not all but most of the recording I do is solo piano, would it not be beneficial to have input leves as high as possible without clipping? If not, why? curious.

I'm going to try what you suggested, and close the lid to the lower level, and 'wrap' the piano in blankets. I'll do that today at my lunch hour, and post the results.

Thanks again everyone for all your help.

-Post Script: Anyone ever use Royer ribbon mics to record a grand??
 
Ha Ha !!
Sjoko2 - thats not me in the photo it's one of my idiol's :)
Jimi smith playing a hammond B3.

Am a Honky white boy..
 
sjoko2,,, ok, I had a little time this morning, so i took your advice, and moved the mics closer, propped the lid in the lower position, and wrapped it in comforters.

We're getting VERY close!!!
What a difference!
I did have to lower the inputs on the mic pre to about +10db.

I also knocked out the High Pass Filters; well, turned then all the way down to 7Hz anyway.

There seems to be a slight boost in the bass using this technique. Not sure if thats such a bad thing, but EQ could even it out i suppose.

If you don't mind, listen again, and let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Michael
 

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mmm - sounds like you've lost your top end. I don't know the pre you are using, but it seems the highpass filter lets no highs pass! Should you turn it the other way? I mean - any setting that makes it NOT work, just straight, flat, direct out of the mic. That's the only way you'll know how your mics sound.

If you still miss some high end after trying that, direct your microphones more to the top end of the grand.

Please let me know the results. Oh yeah, when I said the level was a bit hot, I ment the level of the MP3, as it was clipping out a bit.

Shailat!! Damn you got me there. With a name like that, and the picture, I really thought it was you......
Pfffffffffeeeeeeew Jimmy was young there.
Love those Hammonds.
 
I left out the Royer. A good microphone, without question (no where near my favorites).
I would not recomment it for you. It will pick up even more ambiant noise, you'll hear the neighbors flush their loo!
Unless you are in an ideal acoustic environment, don't.
Also, its a cool tool for milking strings and acoustic instruments, but I'd never use one on an acoustic piano.
 
Sjoko2,
I'm going to have to change my Avatar :). No more mistakes now.
 
sjoko2

OK, I took your advice to the next level. It seems to me that the high's are a bit,,,dampened?

Rather than post another file on here, I posted the file on my web page.

http://michaeljones.iuma.com

The song is called "Tenderly". You've been a great help so far, and I appreciate all the advice you've given me, but if i could bother you to listen one more time?

Thanks

Michael.
 
Hi there.
Yes I can hear that, it sounds muffled.
I also listened to the next song on your web page, and there you have a clear phasing problem.

First things first. please go here:
www.gtelectronics.com/app/piano.html and study a bit about miking pianos. That will help.
Also, put the high pass filter in your pre on again, this time at between 60 and 70 Hz.
Try the mic placements suggested in the article, and play around with the blankets over the piano. Start with opening it up a little at the front (keyboard) end.

Experiment. Unfortunately its one of those things. What you have to remember is that, whatever you do, you are trying to make adjustments for a room problem, not a piano problem.

Try and put the mic's closer to the keys as well. Try try try. Please report your findings.

Oh yes. Do you understand what I mean with the phasing problem you have on the 2nd track on your website?
 
I have experimented with a multitude of microphone placements in the past. The technique you have given me is the one that has come closest to capturing that "pure essence of piano" that is so elusive.

Phasing problems:

Well, correct me if i'm wrong, but if two soundwaves are "out of phase" then one valley in a sine wave coresponds to a peak in the other. The net result being no sound at all. Yes?
Of course, throw in the sympathetic resonance and harmonics of a piano, and you don't have cancellation of sound, but cancellation of some parts of the audio spectrum. Is that right?

I have a phase reverse switch on each channel of my amp, should i turn one on? I guess I've probably picked one of the hardest instruments to record huh?

Additionally; I've been using only two mics on this piano, I also have a pair of Sure SM81's, I guess I could try to employ those too. A few other mics in my closet as well, but none I'd use for instruments.

Oh yeah, the second recording on my web site was with a different piano.
If you scroll down on the web site, you'll see pics of my studio. Might give you an idea of the room.

Thanks again, I'll let you know what I come up with.


Just an after thought, suppose we do get this figured out, and come away with a nice sound. I've been keeping pretty good records of what I've done, and how I've done it, but can the sound be duplicated, say 6 weeks from now, or will I need to go thru numerous adjustments all over again? Remember, I'm a musician, not an audio engineer.
 
Michael Jones said:


Well, correct me if i'm wrong, but if two soundwaves are "out of phase" then one valley in a sine wave coresponds to a peak in the other. The net result being no sound at all. Yes?

Click to expand...

Partially, but not completely true. If you have two sine waves and one's valleys corresponds exactly to the other ones peaks then they are 180 degrees out of phase.
If the wave takes 10 seconds to complete a cycle and the second wave starts 5 seconds after the first they will be 180 degrees out of phase and produce a straight line, if it started 2.5 seconds after it would be 90 degrees out of phase and produce a more complicated wave shape, etc.

It's easiest to see if you draw it on paper, where the two waves are on the same side of the 'zero line' you add their 'heights' together , where they are on opposite sides you reduce the higher peak/valley by the height of the lesser.
 
Hey Michael,

Phasing problem:
You are right in what you stated - in theory. If you listen to the 2nd track on your site, you hear, damn, how should I describe this., a sort of timed, mild shifting. That is the classic out-a-phase sound. When you experiment with this, play some keys with a set of good headphones on, and flip your phase shift on the pre-amp on and off. If your mic's are in-phase, the sound will be tight - not in phase it will sound like its starting to 'float-around'.

I looked at your pictures. Nice set-up! That helps a lot.
Here is something to try. Get 2 boom stands, extend them all the way, and place the boom horizontal, equal bits sticking out on each side - like a T. Position them about 2 to 3 foot from the piano - in the length of the piano. Take the blankets off the piano, and drape them over the top of the stands, open the piano all the way up again.
Position your microphones as follows:
1) Place the first one over the 'high' end - exactly between the 2 holes, at the point where the cross member tapers off towards the piano. Come in from the narrow end of the piano, angle the 103 just behind the hammers.
2) Now listen to the sound, you should get a nice bright one.
3) Add the second mic, same angle, slightly to the right of the second hole. Make sure the mics are level with each other, same spacing from the hammers, same hight.
4) Don't just add the 2nd mike at the same level. Listen and feed the volume in gradually, until you have the sound you want.

I'll bet you the above will work with your set-up. If you still get to much ambiant noise, remove the lid altogether.

Forget about the Sures, the 103's are good mics, just a little bottom-end happy. If you get 'the' sound, just remember your set-up!
 
sjoko2:

OK, I tried what you suggested. I think it works really well. There still seems to be just a touch of room ambience in the recording, but I'm not so sure thats a bad thing. The highs seem pretty crisp, not shimmering, but crisp, and the lows seem to be well placed too. I did the 2 separate mic stands with booms, and brought each mic up separately as you suggested.

Maybe add just a slight touch of EQ to accentuate the highs?? What do you think?

Again, the song is called "Tenderly", and its posted on my site here:

http://michaeljones.iuma.com

Thanks again for all your help. I never would have made it this far without your guidance, and expert knowledge.

Michael
 
Sounds better.
Remember your setup ........ and keep experimenting!
Please ask anything, anytime.
Good luck!
 
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