pitch problems less noticeable in phones vs. monitors?

[heatmiser]

Hey,

Just wondering...(and I apologize if this is some kind of widely-known fact), but is it possible that it is harder to hear pitch correctly through headphones than through monitors?

I ask because from time to time, when tracking vocals while monitoring on phones, the pitch sounds fine. I play back on monitors and hear various pitch problems that I didn't hear while tracking. Put on the phones again - and it sounds fine??

I happen to be tracking to a tape-based multitracker which is old and, I fear, at death's door. The tape speed changes from one take to the next and I am constantly adjusting the pitch control and/or tuning my instruments up or down to match. Not a good situation to be sure and one that makes the above issue with hearing pitch correctly through headphones all the more problematic.

Am I just imagining this? I sometimes see people tracking (usually vocals) with one headphone speaker off of one ear, or cupping it with their hand...why? Does this help with pitch in some way? Any thoughts/recommendations?...thanks!

 

[gecko zzed]

There are a number of causes of pitch problems when tracking.

For example, loud backing (specially bass) can fool you into singing flat. It sounds as if you are on key while tracking, but during playback, you realise you've gone flat. Singers who are used to playing in loud bands live can adjust to this, and sometimes find themselves singing sharp when recording. Headphones, through their intimacy, contribute to this acoustic deceit.

 

[moresound]

Hey,

Just wondering...(and I apologize if this is some kind of widely-known fact), but is it possible that it is harder to hear pitch correctly through headphones than through monitors?

I ask because from time to time, when tracking vocals while monitoring on phones, the pitch sounds fine. I play back on monitors and hear various pitch problems that I didn't hear while tracking. Put on the phones again - and it sounds fine??

I happen to be tracking to a tape-based multitracker which is old and, I fear, at death's door. The tape speed changes from one take to the next and I am constantly adjusting the pitch control and/or tuning my instruments up or down to match. Not a good situation to be sure and one that makes the above issue with hearing pitch correctly through headphones all the more problematic.

Am I just imagining this? I sometimes see people tracking (usually vocals) with one headphone speaker off of one ear, or cupping it with their hand...why? Does this help with pitch in some way? Any thoughts/recommendations?...thanks!

WOW! Heatmiser, Sounds to me like you have the first ever auto tune head phones!!!!

 

[heatmiser]

There are a number of causes of pitch problems when tracking.

For example, loud backing (specially bass) can fool you into singing flat. It sounds as if you are on key while tracking, but during playback, you realise you've gone flat. Singers who are used to playing in loud bands live can adjust to this, and sometimes find themselves singing sharp when recording. Headphones, through their intimacy, contribute to this acoustic deceit.

Thanks g z - I do tend to monitor pretty loud when I track...and I do tend to have bass-heavy mixes. Maybe I should turn it down and/or turn down the bass of the backing tracks while tracking...

Still odd that it not only seems to happen during tracking but during playback as well.

WOW! Heatmiser, Sounds to me like you have the first ever auto tune head phones!!!!

LOL - Yes, it does seem that way, doesn't it? I guess this is not a common phenomenon after all. If I could just capture the sound coming out of the cones of the phones, I should be fine

 

[tigerflystudio]

Hi, don't worry it is a pretty common problem. Most singers need to be able to hear themselves to get good / the best results.

A few things to try here (one of which might just work for you!):

- Turn down the volume the backing track (by about half) so your voice is much louder. This will enable you to concentrate on keeping good pitch.
or:
- Try wearing only one headphone

- Reduce the number of instruments in the mix, but still give yourself something to latch on to for solid pitch (piano / guitars)
or:
- Try singing backing vocals along with only the main vocal and drums (i.e. no other instrument) (assuming you've the main vocal's on-pitch, of course! Ha ha ha... )

Usually, if the headphone mix is too loud, you will think you're on pitch, when in fact you're not.

Hope that helps

 

[grimtraveller]

When I'm tracking vocals myself or anyone else, I never have more than one instrument and drums/percussion in the cans. There's usually bass or guitar to sing to and it's easier with guitar. Much of the time, other singers will just use one cup of the headphone so they can hear themselves independently of the music. And the others are right - keep the volume relatively low - that may help. But if the last 20 years and numerous singers have been anything to go by, it's not an uncommon phenomena !

 

[heatmiser]

Hi, don't worry it is a pretty common problem. Most singers need to be able to hear themselves to get good / the best results.

A few things to try here (one of which might just work for you!):

- Turn down the volume the backing track (by about half) so your voice is much louder. This will enable you to concentrate on keeping good pitch.
or:
- Try wearing only one headphone

- Reduce the number of instruments in the mix, but still give yourself something to latch on to for solid pitch (piano / guitars)
or:
- Try singing backing vocals along with only the main vocal and drums (i.e. no other instrument) (assuming you've the main vocal's on-pitch, of course! Ha ha ha... )

Usually, if the headphone mix is too loud, you will think you're on pitch, when in fact you're not.

Hope that helps

Awesome. Thanks for the ideas...it is really helpful to me to get specific suggestions and I can definitely try all of them at some point.

When I'm tracking vocals myself or anyone else, I never have more than one instrument and drums/percussion in the cans. There's usually bass or guitar to sing to and it's easier with guitar. Much of the time, other singers will just use one cup of the headphone so they can hear themselves independently of the music. And the others are right - keep the volume relatively low - that may help. But if the last 20 years and numerous singers have been anything to go by, it's not an uncommon phenomena !

Great, thanks so much for chiming in. I've got a better sense of what might be going on now, even though on some level I find it counter-intuitive that perception of pitch would be affected by volume.

There's some pretty good consensus on the replies so far, so I'm going to try all of these things and see if any of them minimize the issues I'm having.Of course it would help a lot if my tascam would play/record at the same speed with each pass!

I still don't understand why loudspeakers seem to reveal the problems better than phones...must be something to do with the distance from the ear...physics or something...or just a perception thing on my part...

 

[grimtraveller]

I still don't understand why loudspeakers seem to reveal the problems better than phones...must be something to do with the distance from the ear...physics or something...or just a perception thing on my part...

I think it is to do with distance from the ear. Maybe sound coming so close so loud and so approximate just flangles our ears. Sometimes I've found that when listening with phones to albums that I know well, bits sound out of tune. Not so much the singing, usually the bass. The notes just seem either indistinct or 'off'. But when coming out of the speakers, no such illusion.

 

[Paulie Jay]

There are a number of causes of pitch problems when tracking.

For example, loud backing (specially bass) can fool you into singing flat. It sounds as if you are on key while tracking, but during playback, you realise you've gone flat. Singers who are used to playing in loud bands live can adjust to this, and sometimes find themselves singing sharp when recording. Headphones, through their intimacy, contribute to this acoustic deceit.

That is good to know – I will make my monitor mixes much more bass-light in the future. I have also noticed that errors in pitch become much more obvious through monitors. In fact, I hate doing vocal takes with cans. Give me a fold-back wedge any day.

Funny thing is as a performing bassist I imagine that I would probably fall in to the “pitching-sharp-due-to-compensation” category. My usual problem is singing flat…

I find that my singing is usually best with piano backing. I don't know if it is all of the overtones from the piano that help be pitch better, maybe it is...?

 

[frederic]

Whoever suggested bass frequencies confuse the brain in headphones is spot on - this is because of how the brain deciphers stereo imaging to determine location forward and back, and how it processes that information.

Here's a fun experiment to try:

Sit blindfolded in the middle of the room, and have an assistant walk around in socks so you can't hear them, then abruptly clap or snap their fingers. Nine times out of ten you'll be able to point to their location, while blindfolded.

Repeat the experiment, using a pair of mics, one in each hand pointing at the ceiling, or a stereo mic held above your head, and wear headphones. Repeat the experiment - now you can consistently determine if the clapper/snapper is to your left, or right, but not whether they are in front of you or behind you. If you point correctly it's pure luck. If you tilt the mic(s) slightly forward, you once again can determine fore and aft location very consistently.

It's because of reflections, and how your brain uses that acoustical information to determine sound location. This was useful when we were avoiding predators or seeking lunch - obviously you want to run towards lunch and away from the predator. And we do this with only two ears.

The reason why you can't do this with microphones, is they are equally sensitive fore and aft and therefore you have no information to determine the difference between fore and aft - but left and right still works.

If you want to eliminate all directional determination use one mic and feed that to both sides of the headphones, and you'll see what I mean - now you can't find the clapper/snapper blindfolded except out of sheer luck.

Bass frequencies are harder to locate because of the longer waveforms and generally the more power that's necessary to transmit them. It takes far longer for your brain to have enough "data" to go "ah-ha, it's in front of me to the left" than a higher frequency, even when not handicapped with headphones in the way I described above.

In a stereo recording, there is only left or right, so you would think that it shouldn't matter, but it does.

I think, and this is just a guess, that by removing the reflective, fore/aft acoustical information, the brain uses what is left "moreso" to try and determine fore/aft location - and bass frequencies, because of the length of the waveform and the higher power required to hear them, simply confuses the brain.

That and a buck will get you a cup of joe