Piano Mic Help!

[RRuskin]

Well that mic is now discontinued.

http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Microphones/EDS/CS15 EDS.pdf

What happens when you break / lose one? Or if you need a perfectly matched pair? 141dB is nice. Frequency response, not so much. Noise floor, not so much. According to historical specs. It seems to have a pretty common mention in inventories. Although the used street price is kind of discouraging ($125 - $200). In reference to a budget mic anyway.

Yes, it's now only available on the used market. Very little to go wrong with them unless you manage to trash the capsule. Everything else is serviceable. The FET can be upgraded if so desired. I keep them in house full time so loss isn't much of an an issue. Never had a problem when using any 2 of the 7 currently here together as a stereo pair. They impart no hype to the sound making them among the most versatile and in many cases, forgiving mics I've come across. $125 - $200 for that kind of tool is quite reasonable in my book.

 

[Shadow_7]

It just doesn't seem like this frequency responsive curve would suit piano too well.

But that's just me. I could be wrong or the specs might be, but that curve seems a bit too hyped for transparent / neutral goals. Although it might sound wonderful on a conventional stereo system where it might need that hype to sound neutral.

 

[halfred]

Sorry that I'm quadruple-posting, but can somebody please help?

You could get a Zoom HN4. Pianists on the different piano forums seem to rave about them. Haven't used it myself. They have a lot of features like 4 track and multitrack recording, plus MS decoding----the list goes on and on. Even audio engineers give them good reviews, always suprised how good they are for the price, it seems. You could just get some SP C4 mics, hook them up to the ZOOM and you are in business. Study all the possible mic postions, and make up your own.

Load the files from the Zoom through USB to your computer and you can edit them using a software program. Hope this was helpful.

 

[RRuskin]

It just doesn't seem like this frequency responsive curve would suit piano too well.

But that's just me. I could be wrong or the specs might be, but that curve seems a bit too hyped for transparent / neutral goals. Although it might sound wonderful on a conventional stereo system where it might need that hype to sound neutral.

I learned long ago not to put too much stock in published specs. The graphs can be tailored simply by how fast they run the pen on the test. As for my monitors, they are JBL 4315's, large format 4-ways that are far more accurate than any near field types could ever hope to be.

 

[1sttake studio]

The best i have heard was using a matched pair of AKG c1000's.
nothing fancy just have them placed about 12 inches above the strings and angled down slightly, with one mic for the highs and the other for the lower notes

 

[RRuskin]

The best i have heard was using a matched pair of AKG c1000's.
nothing fancy just have them placed about 12 inches above the strings and angled down slightly, with one mic for the highs and the other for the lower notes

To each his own. I wouldn't use C1000's for paperweights.

 

[halfred]

The best i have heard was using a matched pair of AKG c1000's.
nothing fancy just have them placed about 12 inches above the strings and angled down slightly, with one mic for the highs and the other for the lower notes

For recording classical, you don't want to pick up the mechanical noises of the piano--a "no no." Also, the sound doesn't really start to blend untill at least 4-7' out from the fully open piano lid. About 4-7' out from the bend is a good place to experiment, particularly when recording in the living room space as Wookie described.

 

[wookieecrisp]

You could get a Zoom HN4. Pianists on the different piano forums seem to rave about them. Haven't used it myself. They have a lot of features like 4 track and multitrack recording, plus MS decoding----the list goes on and on. Even audio engineers give them good reviews, always suprised how good they are for the price, it seems. You could just get some SP C4 mics, hook them up to the ZOOM and you are in business. Study all the possible mic postions, and make up your own.

Load the files from the Zoom through USB to your computer and you can edit them using a software program. Hope this was helpful.

Thanks everyone! This seems like a pretty good setup, are there any more thoughts about this?

 

[halfred]

Thanks everyone! This seems like a pretty good setup, are there any more thoughts about this?

Well, there are a lot of opinions here and there are lots of people who know a ton more than I do, but then agian, I'm not a sound professional, I'm a musician who dicided I want to make some really good recordings (and have gathered a shitload of information here.) Keep in mind that classical piano is very specific and what may work for other venues may not work for classical piano. And then within those parameters,there's lot's of room for experimentation.

 

[Marik]

OK, so I read around some more on some threads you posted Marik, and I am looking at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Stellar-RM-3-Ri...tem?rvr_id=&itemid=130324771768#ht_973wt_1165

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-SRC2496-ULTRAMATCH-PRO-Converter?sku=182480

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/AudioBuddy.html

http://cgi.ebay.com/Studio-Projects...oryZ41466QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=#ht_3232wt_939

Is there anything else I need? I'm still pretty clueless at mic placement and what software I'm going to use...

I posted the AudioBuddy and Behringer rather as an example. The AudioBuddy is quite a decent little pre for the price, but unfortunately has very poor phantom power supply, so won't work well with some.
The SP mics are a new version (with switches, filters, etc.) and are more expensive. I'd look at the older model, or Behringer B5, which from what I hear are the same, but much cheaper.

I think Halfred has a sensible advise. Another choice would be Marantz PMD661, but it is already more expensive.

Record, learn recording techniques and mic placement, learn software and how to use it and how to edit. Ones you feel you outgrew your setup, then it is a good time to upgrade.

Best, M


If you want to record (and edit) on a computer then I'd start with

 

[wookieecrisp]

I posted the AudioBuddy and Behringer rather as an example. The AudioBuddy is quite a decent little pre for the price, but unfortunately has very poor phantom power supply, so won't work well with some.
The SP mics are a new version (with switches, filters, etc.) and are more expensive. I'd look at the older model, or Behringer B5, which from what I hear are the same, but much cheaper.

I think Halfred has a sensible advise. Another choice would be Marantz PMD661, but it is already more expensive.

Record, learn recording techniques and mic placement, learn software and how to use it and how to edit. Ones you feel you outgrew your setup, then it is a good time to upgrade.

Best, M


If you want to record (and edit) on a computer then I'd start with

Thanks a billion M! How much better is the Marantz compared to the Zoom? And can you finish your last sentence please? Thanks again!

 

[halfred]

Thanks a billion M! How much better is the Marantz compared to the Zoom? And can you finish your last sentence please? Thanks again!

You can go to wingfieldaudio.com to compare sound samples from all the major portable recorders. The Zoom H4N sounds to me a bit thin and bright compared to the Marantz PMD 661. The Marantz has more body to the sound. Even in the spoken word samples,the words have a "softer edge." I think the Marantz recorder would be more appropriate than the Zoom for classical piano music recording. Then again, I like the sound of the Marantz for the repertoire I am playing--the Romantic literature from Mendessohn to Chopin to Rachmaninov to Granados etc. However, Scarlatti Sonatas, for instance, might sound great with the Zoom. Even though I wouldn't trade in my S&S B, I tend to prefer the sound of a good Yamaha for piano music of the Baroque and Classical periods because I feel that the bright tone and emphasis on the fundamental, showcases those styles of music "better." And of course the artistic possibilities on the Steinway are seemingly limitless, however the generally dark tone creates a "different" kind of music. Comes down to what sound you are after.

 

[kgirl72]

I've used a mic like that first one to record a piano in a class at UNR once - sounded pretty good. Can't for the life of me remember what it's called when it has the little soundboard below it (if that's what it is). Had it sitting on a music stand and it had a pretty bright sound. I have had the best luck using a large diaphragm condenser to cover the mid to low end and a pencil condenser, one you might use as an overhead drum mic for the high end. These pencil was in the opened top of the piano and the LD down toward the bottom left of the piano in front of the screen maybe a foot and a half up from the ground. This was of course on an upright. you'd have to rethink it if you have a grand/baby grand.

Are you talking about a piezo? Or something like that? It has a flat surface?

 

[wookieecrisp]

My final setup will be: 2 Behringer B5's - Marantz PMD661 - Sony ACID Pro.
What cables/stands etc. will I need?

 

[halfred]

Samsom makes some inexpensive boom stands for $29.95. They're light weight and easy to store. You'll need two of them because you may want to try a spaced pair a few feet apart (in addition to coincident pair, ORTF, NOS etc.) Cables, you'll need two XLR to XLR (one end "Male" to connect to the PMD, the other end "Female" to connect to the mics. Monster or Mogami are good brands of cable. You'll need a stereo bar for you coincident pair recording, the Behringers may have come with one, if not you can order one.

 

[wookieecrisp]

Thanks so much Halfred! I have no need for the recorder to be portable; so are there any non-portable ones that are better/cheaper? And do I need a preamp (or does the recorder already do that)?

 

[darrin_h2000]

Portables are cool to have...and some rival the sound you get from an decent stereo pair of mics...but they are best used as camcorder mics.

 

[halfred]

Thanks so much Halfred! I have no need for the recorder to be portable; so are there any non-portable ones that are better/cheaper? And do I need a preamp (or does the recorder already do that)?

Oh, I thought you already had the Marantz.Yes the Marantz and many other field (portable) recorders have preamps with 48v phantom power. You need 48v phantom power for most condenser mics which are the type of mics you'll be most likely using. I don't know anything about other types of set ups. Don't know much about seperate preamp units, I looked into it, but I wanted to lessen my "learning curve", so I chose to use a field (portable recorder) that had good preamps and phantom power built in to bypass that step--it's too technical for me without knowing anyone in the Audio field to give me a hand! I chose a Tascam HD P2 in which the preamps and circuitry has been upgraded by a well thought of company called Oade Brothers. The preamps in the unit are dead quiet and the depth of tone is amazing---can keep up with the most high end recorders, I'm sure of it (at a fraction of the price, but still pricey!) Anyway, Oade also sells Marantz PMD 661 with audio upgrades for not much more than regular price. Other than the Zoom, the Microtrack ll is really cheap--you can get one for $179. Has 48v phantom power and does an OK job--might be fine for you. It's very easy to use--the easiest of all the digital portables.You'll need TRS to XLR cables for the microtrack. You should probably go with what's easysest unless you want to spend way more time learning how to record than making a recording.

 

[wookieecrisp]

I might choose the oade modified Marantz. However, which mod should I get?

 

[halfred]

I might choose the oade modified Marantz. However, which mod should I get?

I suggest you do what I did. Use email link on the Oade Bros. website and contact Doug Oade. I discussed my situaton with him in length and what I wanted to accomplish and he recommended which model and which upgrade would be best. He recommended lower priced models that would work for me as well. He's very informative and helpful.