PHASING ISSUES with SUMMING AMP

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ryserhippo

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setup: on a mac with an apogee ensemble as my interface > all 8 outputs going DB25 to a Summing Amp. The SPIDF output on the ensemble is going to the Coax input on a benchmark DAC1 for monitoring. I then have the summing amp output plugged into inputs 7/8 on my ensemble

Everything seems to be working...until I listen to what's going through the summing amp. It sound like it's phasing, all my low end/mid range is getting eaten up...but when I pan a stem hard right or hard left, it sounds AMAZING...except the problem is, it's panned hard left or hard right.

How do I get what I hear when its panned, when I have the stems (audio channel) centered?

A little more info: Logic 7.2 is my DAW I separate - drums/bass/guitars,synths,(mid rangy stuff)/main vox & beegees - over the 4 stereo pairs.

Output 1-2 = Drums

Output 3-4 = Bassy bits

Output 5-6 = Guitars, Synths, etc.

Output 7-8 = Vox, etc.

I then set-up an Audio channel with the input recording the summing amp (input 7/8) and output 9/10 (going to my DAC1)

Any help would be great appreciated

Thanks!
 
The symptoms sound like the signal is being heard twice, with one version being inverted and slightly delayed as if going through an additional set of A/D and D/A conversion.

Is the 9/10 S/PDIF output your normal monitoring path? Are tracks audible through 9/10 without going though the summing amp? If yes, then find a way to mute them in 9/10 while the stems still go out 1-8.
 
I set S/PIDF Output (9/10) as the default Output for my computer in Audio Midi Setup (in the utilities folder). Since all the Outputs of the apogee are going to the summing amp, I need to do this in order to hear iTunes, Quicktime, Internet, Etc.

However, when I am in my DAW, I have all the Outputs set to 1-8 and nothing is going out 9-10 (Except for the channel recording my summing amp, so I can monitor it). If the summing channel strip is not set to record, I hear nothing - Unless I set a specific channel to output 9-10, in which I case I hear it through my DAC (bypassing the summing). But I don't have any stem channel Outputs set to 9/10 when I am recording what's being summed, they are all going out 1-8

The computers main out is still going through 9/10 tho. I never have any other applications open whilst working in logic that could possibly interfere.

Does this give you any more clues?

Thanks for the help
 
Do you have any input monitoring on? If you mute the track recording your summing amp do you still hear the summing amp output when playing the stems?
 
I did not consider the fact that input monitoring might be occurring. I'm not in my studio at the moment, but I will try this first thing tomorrow. I bet that's what the problem is.

If this is the case, should I disable "Software Monitoring" in Logic's audio drivers preferences?
 
That sounds like a reasonable idea. I'm still a little curious how panning comes into it but I suspect you'll figure it out.
 
I assume you're referring to each stereo pair as a stem. The questions I have are whether this happens a) when playing an individual stem, or only when summing more than one stem together, and B) does it happen to all stems or just one or two particular stems?

G.
 
it's happening to all channels. If I solo the kick for example, which for me would be a 24 bit Wav sample. Sounds like I've taken an EQ and rolled off everything from 5hz - 1000hz and also the stereo image sounds really wide, too wide. When I Pan it right or left, I hear it getting less and less phasy. When its fully panned it sounds like it should sound, has the tint of the summing amp and all the freqs are responding as they should...but it's panned :(

Everything sounds too wide! This isn't a character of the summing amp haha...Could it be, because things that should be mono are in stereo? I have things that should be in Mono, but I see they are still going out of 2 outputs, should they being going out of 1?

Example: I have my kick set to Mono, but the only option for output when I select the drop down menu is (1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8) not just (1, 2, 3, 4, etc.)
 
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hmmm I looked up some things on Logics mono output issue, their advice is to just pan...they don't have a set MONO output, like pro tools. But the thing that boggles me is - if I hard pan a mono kick right, that should put it just on channel 1...however it only comes out of 1 speaker.
 
Are you connecting TRS stereo to TRS balanced anywhere in the system?
 
This just doesn't make sense. I don't know LOGIC, but there HAS to be a way to get mono channels. 90% of what we record is mono. I hope someone that knows LOGIC well comes in and solves this because I can't believe a DAW would only give you stereo channels and no mono channels.
 
RAMI said:
This just doesn't make sense. I don't know LOGIC, but there HAS to be a way to get mono channels. 90% of what we record is mono. I hope someone that knows LOGIC well comes in and solves this because I can't believe a DAW would only give you stereo channels and no mono channels.
Click to expand...

You can have a channel set to mono, but it's always going out on a 2 channel output. Which is totally redundant, I know. I've looked into this issue many times before and if your using any version prior to Logic 9, they suggest you Pan for mono.
 
ryserhippo said:
You can have a channel set to mono, but it's always going out on a 2 channel output. Which is totally redundant, I know. I've looked into this issue many times before and if your using any version prior to Logic 9, they suggest you Pan for mono.
Click to expand...

Man, they're forcing you to send everything to a stereo bus, basically. That's weird.

I guess it wouldn't be THAT weird if you were able to pan your bass drum in the middle without it sounding bad.
 
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bouldersoundguy said:
Are you connecting TRS stereo to TRS balanced anywhere in the system?
Click to expand...

Nope, the only TRS I have are going out to the summing amp via DB25 and then a stereo pair returning from the summing amp to inputs 7/8 (not the mic pre inputs) on my ensemble
 
I used to have problems with Acid and a summing amp due to everything being forced to a stereo out

I got around it with mono tracks like this

Mono Kick sent to chan 7-8 hard panned left in the track and sent to the bus post panning
Mono bass sent to Chan 7-8 hard panned right in the track and sent to the bus post paning

This meant that going out to summing I had a mono signal on channel 7 & 8.
On the summing box i panned those two channels center

All stereo stems the panning on the summer were odd number channel panned left and even number channel panned right to make sure I got a proper stereo signal without getting information from left and right channels crossing over on to their neighboring tracks

I don't know if you are having issues around this but this works for me until I switched to reaper where I can now send individual tracks to whatever hardware output I want in whatever configuration I want
 
Bristol Posse said:
Mono Kick sent to chan 7-8 hard panned left in the track and sent to the bus post panning
Mono bass sent to Chan 7-8 hard panned right in the track and sent to the bus post paning

This meant that going out to summing I had a mono signal on channel 7 & 8.
On the summing box i panned those two channels center
Click to expand...

My Summing amp doesn't have a panning function on it, I know some do.

When I put the tracks into mono it sounds great, cept its in mono.

I tried turning off Auto Monitoring, Software Monitoring - that didn't do anything.

I connected the direct output of my summing amp to my speakers and it sounded great, so the problem doesn't lie there (so that means it can handle all the stereo just fine) - When I play itunes or a DVD on my mac, it sounds just fine through my DAC, so the problem isn't there either - When I'm in Logic and I want to listen to the mix through my DAC (bypassing summing) it sounds fine.

I've tried all the inputs on my apogee, so it rules that out - I've tried different cables, so no cable issues

The only thing I can't do is get a good recording or monitoring of my summing amp (in stereo) when I'm in my DAW...it's driving me up a wall, I know I must be doing 1 tini tiny thing wrong.
 
ryserhippo said:
it's driving me up a wall, I know I must be doing 1 tini tiny thing wrong.
Click to expand...

It would drive me up the wall too. Can you record and play back (soloed) the summing mixer output? How does that sound? If the bad sound is or isn't recorded tells you something.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
It would drive me up the wall too. Can you record and play back (soloed) the summing mixer output? How does that sound? If the bad sound is or isn't recorded tells you something.
Click to expand...

If I solo the channel that has the summing amp output, nothing plays through it...cause it's solo'd. That stops all the audio from the other tracks going to the summing amp.

Here is a rough diagram of what my DAW looks like

Audio Track 1 > Kick Drum
(Output 1-2 to amp)

Audio Track 2 > Hi Hat
(Output 1-2 to amp)

Audio Track 3 > Bass
(Output 3-4 to amp)

Audio Track 4 > Lead Synth
(Output 5-6 to amp)

Audio Track 5 (Rec. Enabled) > Summing Amp
(Input 7-8 from amp)
(Output 9-10 to dac)

this seems to make sense to me?

Thanks so much for your help so far with this problem, I'm seriously lost for ideas and anything you suggest is better than what I got right now. I know this is totally fixable, I just don't know what stupid thing I'm doing wrong haha

Thanks a ton for the help
 
ryserhippo said:
If I solo the channel that has the summing amp output, nothing plays through it...cause it's solo'd. That stops all the audio from the other tracks going to the summing amp.
Click to expand...

I mean record the output of the summing amp, even just a few seconds, and then play it back to see how it recorded.

There's software called "Maestro" that evidently comes with your interface. It's a routing (monitor mix etc.) mixer that could be looping back some signal to your output.
 
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