Phase Cancellation

[ez_willis]

I know this has been covered, but don't make me spend an hour trying to find exactly what I need!

Will two overhead mics(drums) that are out of phase make the stereo tracks sound like they're limited. Like, completey cut the sound out?

And will that stop when played back in mono?

 

[zed32]

I know this has been covered, but don't make me spend an hour trying to find exactly what I need!

Will two overhead mics(drums) that are out of phase make the stereo tracks sound like they're limited. Like, completey cut the sound out?

And will that stop when played back in mono?

yes and no.



it can completely kill the sound if they are out of phase, and if you play it back in mono, it will still sound bad.


have you tried maybe flipping phase on some of the other drum mics (such as the snare)?

 

[ez_willis]

have you tried maybe flipping phase on some of the other drum mics (such as the snare)?

It happens when I solo the two stereo tracks.

 

[zed32]

It happens when I solo the two stereo tracks.

and i assume you've tried flipping the phase on one of those already.


there's really not too much you can do at this point unfortunately. i mean you can still salvage it by just using one of the 2 OH tracks, but then you lose the stereo effect. still, i'd rather have a mono drum OH than a phasey stereo pair.

 

[ez_willis]

and i assume you've tried flipping the phase on one of those already.


there's really not too much you can do at this point unfortunately. i mean you can still salvage it by just using one of the 2 OH tracks, but then you lose the stereo effect. still, i'd rather have a mono drum OH than a phasey stereo pair.

I haven't recorded tracks for a song yet. I just set my kit back up, got it mic'ed, and recorded a few minutes of throw-away stuff to make sure it was good. I go through this everytime I set my drums back up.

 

[zed32]

I haven't recorded tracks for a song yet. I just set my kit back up, got it mic'ed, and recorded a few minutes of throw-away stuff to make sure it was good. I go through this everytime I set my drums back up.

i see. well good luck with your latest stuff man. your music is always cool.

 

[ez_willis]

i see. well good luck with your latest stuff man. your music is always cool.

Thanks!

And it has nothing to do with phase relation. I just recorded one OH track by itself, then the other, and both are cutting out. It's wierd, sounds like a gate is closing on both of 'em???

 

[ez_willis]

It's wierd, sounds like a gate is closing on both of 'em???

Holy shit!

Pretend this never happened.

I must have checked the two channels that the OH's are on 5 times to make SURE there was no effect on either, and there wasn't! Both channels that I'm monitoring them on were gated.

Where's the Slap's Forehead smiley??

 

[RAMI]

This never happened.

 

[fishkarma]

Lol agreed. Just put it into the big book of stupid audio mistakes that caused fuck ups!

 

[NL5]

Glad you got it sorted out.

BTW - you can somewhat fix phase issues after the fact. Just blow the tracks WAY up, and phase align them. Just use the snare track as a reference.

 

[Sonic Rat]

phase

Not trying to steal this thread,but how does one reverse the phase of a microphone?.just switch hot and ground?..I've had it happen unintentionaly,but I have ,over time,seen where it can be used to actually help out in some situations.....Thanks Dave

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Not trying to steal this thread,but how does one reverse the phase of a microphone?.just switch hot and ground?..I've had it happen unintentionally,but I have ,over time,seen where it can be used to actually help out in some situations.....Thanks Dave

No, you switch Hot (Pin 2) and Negative (Pin 3). The Ground (Pin 1), you don't touch.

 

[ez_willis]

Not trying to steal this thread

Please do!

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

Glad you got it sorted out.

BTW - you can somewhat fix phase issues after the fact. Just blow the tracks WAY up, and phase align them. Just use the snare track as a reference.

NO DO NOT DO THIS. Or at least listen VERY CAREFULLY and see if you like it, don't just automatically do this.

There is no way to make the entire kit phase coherent. Lining up everything to the snare is probably going to fuck up the phase of everything else, making the entire kit sound different(probably worse, but who knows) than when you recorded it. I'd try to get everything as good as possible phase-wise during tracking, even if it means moving the mic a millimeter. You can zoom in on the waveforms in tracking and make sure they line up. Moving drum tracks around to me screws up the depth of the recording. You're dealing with so many variables of how sound interacts in the room and with the mics, and you're screwing up the phase of all of these interactions.

If you need to adjust phase I'd use something like Betabugs Phasebug, or Voxengo PHA979. These can change phase of a signal without as many of the problems that are associated with delayed specific signals in a multi-mike, multi-sound source setup. If you have multiple mics on something like a guitar cab, or something that's basically 1 sound source, than moving stuff around is perfectly fine, it just doesn't seem to work for me on drums with all the different drums/cymbals/sound sources.

Also take into account that in the analog days nobody really moved tracks around, yet they were still able to get a good phase coherent sound, that still had much depth.

 

[ez_willis]

I Had The Two Overhead Tracks Gated AT THE CHANNELS BEING MONITORED!!!!!! ​

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

I Had The Two Overhead Tracks Gated AT THE CHANNELS BEING MONITORED!!!!!! ​

you already posted that.

 

[NL5]

NO DO NOT DO THIS. Or at least listen VERY CAREFULLY and see if you like it, don't just automatically do this.

There is no way to make the entire kit phase coherent. Lining up everything to the snare is probably going to fuck up the phase of everything else, making the entire kit sound different(probably worse, but who knows) than when you recorded it. I'd try to get everything as good as possible phase-wise during tracking, even if it means moving the mic a millimeter. You can zoom in on the waveforms in tracking and make sure they line up. Moving drum tracks around to me screws up the depth of the recording. You're dealing with so many variables of how sound interacts in the room and with the mics, and you're screwing up the phase of all of these interactions.

If you need to adjust phase I'd use something like Betabugs Phasebug, or Voxengo PHA979. These can change phase of a signal without as many of the problems that are associated with delayed specific signals in a multi-mike, multi-sound source setup. If you have multiple mics on something like a guitar cab, or something that's basically 1 sound source, than moving stuff around is perfectly fine, it just doesn't seem to work for me on drums with all the different drums/cymbals/sound sources.

Also take into account that in the analog days nobody really moved tracks around, yet they were still able to get a good phase coherent sound, that still had much depth.

First off, take a chill pill. I was not suggesting that it was the "best way to go". If you have tracks that are out of phase, you can SOMEWHAT fix them by time aligning the overheads to the snare track. I do it all the time. I normally do it for a different reason other than "phase correction", but I also have a complicated process for setting my drum mics that allows me to time align the OH's to the snare for a significant increase in the attack of the snare without ANY phase issues (and I don't use a phase correction plug).

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

First off, take a chill pill. I was not suggesting that it was the "best way to go". If you have tracks that are out of phase, you can SOMEWHAT fix them by time aligning the overheads to the snare track. I do it all the time. I normally do it for a different reason other than "phase correction", but I also have a complicated process for setting my drum mics that allows me to time align the OH's to the snare for a significant increase in the attack of the snare without ANY phase issues (and I don't use a phase correction plug).

What I'm saying is that doing this screws with the phase of other things besides what you're trying to time align, since every mic is picking up every drum/cymbal to some degree.

-Timedog

 

[NL5]

What I'm saying is that doing this screws with the phase of other things besides what you're trying to time align, since every mic is picking up every drum/cymbal to some degree.

-Timedog

Not necessarily.

Also, if every mic IS picking up everything at different times, do you not believe that different frequencies are hitting the different mics at different phase angles? Irregardless of a "phase alignment" plugin? Seems like you would be chasing your tail to me.

Like I said, Ideally the mics are set up right in the first place, then time alignment causes no more phase issues than are inherent in the first place and leaves the snare with one attack - not two (or three, four, five or more - as many home recordings seem to have).

Just as an example, I have a "demo" recording I did a few months ago. I moved several of the drum tracks. You tell me how phasey and muddy the drum tracks are. It's just a quick and dirty demo I did, so the recording is not perfect. But, it's one of the few non death metal projects I have done lately.

As a side not, not only do I not use any "phase alignment" plugins, I bet there are less plugins on the entire mix than most people use on the vox alone.