pedal steel construction

[crazydoc]

Crazydoc - I'm more than impressed; I'm amazed. Do you think more simple palm levers could be added to a lap steel for limited pitch raising/lowering? Something like an electric guitar's tremelo unit, but only on one or two strings, and with adjustable stops to govern how much it raises/lowers the note?

I don't know anything about the benders, but I believe they are relatively expensive, installation requires routing out the guitar and bridge modification, and use requires moving the whole guitar or neck to change the note pitch.

Getting the desired sound many times requires simultaneous barring with the left hand, picking with the right, and bending the note. Most of us don't have a third hand, unfortunately, so legs and feet are used instead, requiring devices (pedals and knee levers) that can be accessed by those appendages. This, of course, complicates the consruction and increases the price.

Here's a link to a video showing one way of bending notes on lap steel or dobro without devices. Note the left 4th finger of the player starting about half way through the clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5BOHszuSsQ&feature=related

Here's a better view:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv19x2FSSoo&feature=related

 

[Flamin Lip]

I cant even slant the bar!!! Cant imagine learning to bend behind it. Pretty sick stuff.

 

[danw]

For a lap steel, there's no need for bridge intonation or action adjustment.

Ok, so it's the fretting that causes the need for intonation adjustment. That should make my job easier. Thanks for the info.

Do you think more simple palm levers could be added to a lap steel for limited pitch raising/lowering? Something like an electric guitar's tremelo unit, but only on one or two strings, and with adjustable stops to govern how much it raises/lowers the note?

I may be doing a simpler version of what you're talking about on my current project -- I don't have stops for specific notes, but I have a little bender for each string. It's a start...

 

[faderbug]

looks awesome! it's not a lap steel but an ordinary guitar right? post some more pics will you.

 

[crazydoc]

Looks interesting! It looks like each string is connected to a little lever that stops up against the bridge. But it looks like you could only raise the pitch, and it would be very difficult to make a pitch change with such a short lever arm.

But I may be seeing it wrong. Post some more pics!

 

[lpdeluxe]

Pedal steel is definitely a "you get what you pay for" device. The better the construction quality, the easier it is to play.

I'd like to say a word about learning the pedal steel. Since I lack good sense, I bought a single neck MSA Sidekick (similar to the Maverick cited above) and devoted myself to it for a couple of years. I should point out that I was in my early '50s at the time -- but I had been playing bottleneck guitar and Dobro since the early '70s, so I thought I had a head start. I have since had several conversations with the local pedal steel hotshot -- he started at age 13. Recommended, but it's probably too late for you too!

First up, get a quality instrument. A cheap one will make you crazy with tuning problems, sticking pedals, and generally poor outcome for the amount of work you'll have to put into it.

Second, a real pedal steel teacher is the way to go. I didn't know of any around here, so I got out Bill Keith's book and figured out bar positions and copedants and chords from that. That wasn't any worse than jogging uphill with a concrete-filled VW bug chained to my right leg.

Third, lose the socket or the Dobro steel or the Stevens steel or whatever: the bullet-nose is the way to go. It allows much more freedom of motion, including zeroing in on a note from above, than any of the alternatives. No doubt a teacher will make you change over the bullet-nose right away in any case. For some reason it always felt unnatural with the Dobro until I started playing pedal steel, and then I couldn't go back. I use the bullet-nose for all lap-style instruments, now. By the way, the pedal steel playing has greatly improved my Dobro performance.

Lastly, be positive! It's no harder than flying a helicopter while keeping a beat and listening to the rest of the guys in the band...and don't forget to smile like Cindy Cashdollar so everyone thinks it's easy for you. I got good enough to record with mine (never got comfortable performing with it, though). I finally traded it off after knee and foot surgery made the pedal moves difficult.

Good luck. It's a lot of fun.

 

[Flamin Lip]

Pedal steel is definitely a "you get what you pay for" device. The better the construction quality, the easier it is to play.

Amen Bruthuh!!!!!!

Look for an older midline to pro model. I am a big fan of Dekley, they are rock solid with stable mechanics and tuning. Their starter model is even high quality. If ya see one on ebay or the steel forum definitely consider it.

And BTW, if you have pigeonholed the instrument as purely a country thang, check out some of the jazz(Buddy Emmons, Dave Easley) and space rock(japancakes) that is out there.

 

[danw]

Looks interesting! It looks like each string is connected to a little lever that stops up against the bridge. But it looks like you could only raise the pitch, and it would be very difficult to make a pitch change with such a short lever arm.

But I may be seeing it wrong. Post some more pics!

Nah, you're right. It's a regular guitar, not a steel, and it's a good ways from finished, too, but I'll post some pictures of where it is right now. The assembly is a tailpiece that sits a an inch or two behind a tune-o-matic style roller bridge. Each string sits in a little quote-shaped piece that rotates on a brass bar. You pull on the long end and it pulls the string around a little wheel. Like having a little Bigsby on each string. The levers rest on a stop that goes across the top, so the string tension pulls it right back in tune. I've always wanted to do bends on harmonics and inside barre chords and never could, and I was hoping to use it for some minor slide work. And yeah, it only raises the pitch (I'm not good enough to make a balanced spring assembly for each piece). But it's not as hard to push the levers down as you'd think. I can make the pitch go up by about 3 half steps without any real trouble. What is difficult is pushing down more than about two at a time, so you can't really use it like a tremelo. I have a feeling I may not be able to go up very much on the string gauge, though; it's currently got 9s on it. That's the only close-up I have of the tailpiece, but here's a shot from the other direction and a picture of the assembly before I put it together.

 

[danw]

And lpdeluxe, I understand where you're coming from, I just don't have the resources to throw at it right now. I don't even have a really good quality guitar, and that's my main instrument. Everything else I own is some kind of rigged-up nightmare, so I'm not too worried about constant-tuning issues and that kind of thing. I'm probably going to go the route of getting a lap steel first, and if I can handle that, maybe get into pedal steel later. It just seems like a simpler mechanism that should be less prone to problems. Honestly, I think the biggest challenge of either for me right now is going to be the righthand work, and keeping all those strings from ringing out all the time. First crawl, then walk, right?

 

[lpdeluxe]

And lpdeluxe, I understand where you're coming from, I just don't have the resources to throw at it right now. I don't even have a really good quality guitar, and that's my main instrument. Everything else I own is some kind of rigged-up nightmare, so I'm not too worried about constant-tuning issues and that kind of thing. I'm probably going to go the route of getting a lap steel first, and if I can handle that, maybe get into pedal steel later. It just seems like a simpler mechanism that should be less prone to problems. Honestly, I think the biggest challenge of either for me right now is going to be the righthand work, and keeping all those strings from ringing out all the time. First crawl, then walk, right?

Not a bad idea. The lap steel is an instrument in its own right, and my current playing partner has been after me to play one on some new tunes he's written.

Come the day, however, invest in a decent pedal steel. I started out purty poor myself, and as I could afford it, I upgraded to better gear. Now, all my junque is gone, and what's left is gigging quality, and that's a good thing.

 

[crazydoc]

danw - nice work. What kind of wood is that?

If you put this mechansim on a lap steel that was mounted on a stand, it should be fairly straightforward to attach cables to those lever arms, run them over a bearing or pully and through a hole out the bottom of the guitar to a pedal.

Initially you'd only have to do two or three strings. With an open major tuning, it would be most important to be able to raise the III a half step to the IV, and the V a whole step to the VI. That way, you can go from the I to the IV chord by simply pressing two pedals either sequentially or simultaneously, without moving the bar, which is basic to pedal steel.

It would also be very handy to lower the major III a half step to the minor III, to give a full minor chord. I can't think offhand, however, with your system how you could be able to both raise and lower one string.

 

[danw]

danw - nice work. What kind of wood is that?

If you put this mechansim on a lap steel that was mounted on a stand, it should be fairly straightforward to attach cables to those lever arms, run them over a bearing or pully and through a hole out the bottom of the guitar to a pedal.

Initially you'd only have to do two or three strings. With an open major tuning, it would be most important to be able to raise the III a half step to the IV, and the V a whole step to the VI. That way, you can go from the I to the IV chord by simply pressing two pedals either sequentially or simultaneously, without moving the bar, which is basic to pedal steel.

It would also be very handy to lower the major III a half step to the minor III, to give a full minor chord. I can't think offhand, however, with your system how you could be able to both raise and lower one string.

Thanks. The body is cedar that's been hollowed out in the wings, and the tailpiece assembly and pickup rings are bocote. I wanted to use something pretty hard and dense for the machinery since there are small parts involved. Really it should be metal; I just don't have the tools / skill for that.

I think it would be a lot more difficult to make anything that lowered the pitch, because that always requires some counter-tensioning to fight the strings. Well, it would essentially have to be a floating trem assembly for each of the strings involved, with some extra stops, so it would have the same issues with not wanting to come back to standard pitch every time. Even my regular floating trems are kind of a pain to tune, and there's no calibration of stops to be done. At least if all the strings are done independently you don't have that issue where one string throws the others out of tune. However, I could also foresee there being some issues with the actual assembly making too much noise (pedals clunking, etc). I can certainly see why that stuff's normally on the bottom, anyway. I might give that a shot someday, but that one's a couple of projects away.

 

[lpdeluxe]

Years ago, someone showed up at NAMM (Nashville? Memory grows furtive) with an electric guitar that incorporated Belden cables (what motorcycles used to connect the throttle grip with the carburetor, back in the day) attached to foot pedals. I seem to remember that it used 6 pedals, one for each string; the concept could be simplified by having a pedal raise both E strings, say, and then one apiece for the G and B strings, which is similar to the pedal steel system.

Anyway, there was a photo in Guitar Player, and it looked like an octopus trying to play guitar.

 

[Rovill]

pedal steels are amazing instruments

 

[ggunn]

There's a guy from around here, Lloyd Mains, who is a phenomenal pedal steel player. He used to play with Joe Ely's band opposite Jesse Taylor (RIP), who was an incredible lead guitarist, and when they got to trading licks and double lead stuff, it was something to see.

He's also Natalie Mains' (Dixie Chicks) dad.

 

[lpdeluxe]

There's a guy from around here, Lloyd Mains, who is a phenomenal pedal steel player. He used to play with Joe Ely's band opposite Jesse Taylor (RIP), who was an incredible lead guitarist, and when they got to trading licks and double lead stuff, it was something to see.

He's also Natalie Mains' (Dixie Chicks) dad.

Yeah, I coulda done all that, if I'd started when I was ten and also had some talent for it....

That's what happens when you live in Austin. You can throw a rock and hit 3 great musicians. Maybe I'll move back and dilute the pool.

 

[Flamin Lip]

There's a guy from around here, Lloyd Mains, who is a phenomenal pedal steel player. He used to play with Joe Ely's band opposite Jesse Taylor (RIP), who was an incredible lead guitarist, and when they got to trading licks and double lead stuff, it was something to see.

He's also Natalie Mains' (Dixie Chicks) dad.

Lloy Maines has played on tons of great stuff. My particular favorite albun he sessioned on was Uncle Tupelos Anodyne. Killer album!!!