patch baying all of this stuff??

  • Thread starter Thread starter wes480
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wes480

wes480

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Ok, I am a bit confused here, on how to best hook up my equipment. Looking for some advice on a patch bay..something that won't degrade my sound quality at all...

I have an Aardvark Q10 soundcard as my mixer/input device - 8 XLR preamp inputs...4 with phantom power. and 4 inserts.

In combination with this, I have an RNC, a Drawmer DL241, and a Studio Projects VTB-1. I will soon have an RNP as well. For direct box I use an Avalon U5

So essentially 2 preamps, and 2 compressors, and a DI box.

My concern, as I continually get more gear...is, what if I decide I want to use the RNP, with the RNC - or, I want to use the RNC with the Drawmer, or the VTB-1 with the RNC...U5 with the Drawmer AND the RNP (expirements!)...you get the idea.

is there a way I can have all of this wired so that I don't have to keep plugging stuff in and out of all of the outboard equipment?

And maybe I could just keep XLR cables running from some bay or whatever, into the Aardvark...so that those would be in all the time, and I could select my "combo" of pre/compressor elsewhere, and if I just wanted to use the Aardvark pre, I could just temporarily unplug 1 or 2 of the XLRs and go straight into it.

I don't know much about patch bays, how they work, or which brands I should look at...I assume that they have a variety of 1/4", balanced, unbalnaced, XLR hookups...and, I don't know that much about balanced/unbalanced gear either if that is going to be an issue.

but, I want something that isn't going to have adverse effects on my signal...becuase if it will, then I will just take the time to unplug everything for every track I do.

Also, I need it to grow with me as I get more gear. I know this is a long post...Please help me...if you know of a good website please post it. :)
 
wes480 said:

I don't know much about patch bays, how they work, or which brands I should look at...I assume that they have a variety of 1/4", balanced, unbalnaced, XLR hookups...and, I don't know that much about balanced/unbalanced gear either if that is going to be an issue.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, they don't. Rack-mountable patchbays typically are either all balanced or all unbalanced, and either all 1/4" or all bantom/TT (tiny telephone) jacks. One can also find all XLR patchbays, but they are more of a specialty item or custom item (i.e. not found in your typical Guitar Center).

So how does one interface equipment with a variety of jack styles (XLR, 1/4 inch) into one patch bay? By soldering the appropriate cable connecters on each end (or only one end if the patchbay is hardwired in the back). This requires advance planning so you end up with the right number of appropriate connectors for the specific equipment you own, and can remember which one goes into which patch point!

The one exception is I would NOT recommend running your preamp XLR inputs into a 1/4" or TT patchbay. Because of phantom power, I would prefer to keep everything XLR to XLR. Even if you don't custom order an XLR patch bay, you can always use a short stage snake (box at one end, fan at other). And if you really don't care about elegance, just plug a bunch of mic cables into all your preamp inputs and bring them out to the front of your rack and label the female ends. Then, when you need to, just reach down and plug your mic cables into the appropriate one.
 
"The one exception is I would NOT recommend running your preamp XLR inputs into a 1/4" or TT patchbay. Because of phantom power, I would prefer to keep everything XLR to XLR."

this is good SANE advice! Phantom supplies and microphone electronics can get horribly FRIED from this. I DO use tt's for mu mics and pres, but I always gotta be super careful.

If you DO use TT's or 1/4" for your mic lines make DAMN sure that that section of the bay is FULL normalled, not half normalled( and nearly ALL 1/4" balanced patchbays are half normal or parallel ONLY and not able to do full normal) phantom power is NOT something you want to split or combine, nor do you want to split your mics audio signal
 
hrmm, ok now i am a bit confused.

i don't mind ordering stuff over the internet, if that is what i need to do (probably will anyways).

as far as making my own cables...well, burn that bridge when I get there.

I am uncomfortable with routing the preamp signal through too many changes...like XLR -> 1/4" etc.

If I were to get an XLR patchbay, and a 1/4" patchbay...could I somehow combine the two to what I wanted to do? also not sure where the mini TT would fit into this?

lets say very basic example, I have 2 preamps, that have XLR outputs, and 1 compressor, that hooks up with TRS only, like an RNC.

How would I most efficiently set up the system so I could use either preamp with the compressor?
 
pipeline - could you go into full/half normal a bit?

i read some other threads...and some manufacturer sites...

and at this point i am staring blankly into space...heh.
 
Any problem plugging a balanced 1/4 inch jack into an unbalnced 1/4 inck patchbay (other than the signal will be now unbalanced)?
 
"as far as making my own cables...well, burn that bridge when I get there. "

in my stupid humble opinion this is the BEST thing you can ever do for your audio, that is: learn to solder. The first job I ever got at a big studio, everyone showed up with tapes they had mixed, I showed up with a soldering iron instead, guess who got the job :) No mic, mic pre, compressor, or any device will ever improve your skills or abilities as much as a soldering iron will. It is the bridge to all things, and without it, nothing is possible...ok Im silly but I sure as hell believe this!

"I am uncomfortable with routing the preamp signal through too many changes...like XLR -> 1/4" etc. "

I dont want to spark an audiophile 5000dollar speaker cable, bucket of saltwater debate, but this effect ( if done properly ) is negligeable. The ability to route your signals any way you see fit at any time, will have FAR FAR FAR more sonic advantages than any tiny amount of degradation will cause. A balanced XLR on one end of a cable and a balanced 1/4" on the other end will be no different than XLR's on both ends. It is the same thing. Routing audio all the way thru a mixer channel ( like mixer manuals and recording schools tell you to) instead of the least possible chain, will have WAY more degradation

"also not sure where the mini TT would fit into this? "

unless you are on a sizeable trust fund, I wouldnt worry about TT for the home

"lets say very basic example, I have 2 preamps, that have XLR outputs, and 1 compressor, that hooks up with TRS only, like an RNC. How would I most efficiently set up the system so I could use either preamp with the compressor?"

OK assuming ONLY these things and no room to grow and a two input soundcard:

Top row, jacks 1 and two: mic snakes FULL normalled OR paralleled to
Bottom row jack 1 mic pre input 1, jack 2 mic pre input 2

Top row, jacks 3 mic pre output 1 , jack 4 mic pre output 2 HALF normalled to
Bottom row jack 3 compressor input 1 jack four compressor output 2

Top row jack 5 compressor output 1 jack 6 compressor output 2 HALF normalled to:
Bottom row jack 5 soundcard input 1 jack 6 xoundcard input 2
 
wes480 said:

I am uncomfortable with routing the preamp signal through too many changes...like XLR -> 1/4" etc.

If I were to get an XLR patchbay, and a 1/4" patchbay...could I somehow combine the two to what I wanted to do? also not sure where the mini TT would fit into this?

lets say very basic example, I have 2 preamps, that have XLR outputs, and 1 compressor, that hooks up with TRS only, like an RNC.

How would I most efficiently set up the system so I could use either preamp with the compressor?
Click to expand...

It's all just a matter of buying or making cables with the right connectors.

Example: let's say you buy one of the Neutrik 1/4" balanced patchbays (less than $100 last time i looked).

Now, assuming we AREN"T going to run your preamp inputs into it (see above) that leaves us with your preamp outputs, all your compressor inputs and outputs, and whatever mixer functions (like line in) you may also want to connect to your patchbay. Now you just need to make a "map" of all your gear.

Example: preamps 1, 2, and 3 have a total of 3 pairs of preamp outputs. Two of the pairs will require an XLR female connector on that end of the cablethat connects them to the patch bay. The other preamp requires a pair of 1/4" TRS connectors. Let's assume your premap rack is about six feet from your patchbay. To be safe, we will then need 6 twelve-foot cables. All six of them will have a TRS plug on one end (the end that will plug into the back of the patchbay. Two cables will also have TRS 1/4" plugs at the other end as well, while the remaining four will have an XLR female connector at the other end.

So, that takes care of your outboard preamps. You will then continue to plan out all the rest of your equipment the same way: how long will the cable need to be and what type of connectors will be at each end. In our example, one end of EVERY cable will be a TRS 1/4" connector because that is the kind of patch bay you purchased. It will only be the OTHER end that will differ, depending on the type of jacks found on each piece of gear you own.

It is possible to go out and purchase ready made cables which have the appropriate lengths and connectors. I did that when I was first starting out because i was afraid of soldering. But that gets REAL expensive really fast, which provides plenty of incentive for learning how to make your own!

TT is another whole level, because you need to hardwire everything into the back, not use cable connectors. The advantage is they will last you your lifetime, which the 1/4" bays will not. But I would recommend the 1/4" bays for a while when you are just starting out because they are easier to configure (and reconfigure). TT bays are also more expensive, and the patch cables are more expensive too.

If you go with an XLR bay just for your preamp inputs, it will not interface with your 1/4" bay. It will be a seperate entity, just allowing you to plug into all your preamp inputs from one accessible location. The one exception would be you COULD run your D.I. inputs that some preamps have into your 1/4" patchbay, but since most preamps have the DI jack right on the front, most people just plug their instruments directly into them and don't bother with a patchbay for that.

Hope this helps.
 
MiXit-G said:
Any problem plugging a balanced 1/4 inch jack into an unbalnced 1/4 inck patchbay (other than the signal will be now unbalanced)?
Click to expand...

Sweet Jesus! Looks like Pipeline and I are answering the same questions simultaneously! That means I can't cheat and look at his answer first to make sure I'm not saying anything stupid! :p

But, taking a big chance here, I'll go out on a limb and say that plugging balanced 1/4" plugs (not jacks - those are the holes) into an unnbalanced patchbay, or plugging unblanaced 1/4" plugs into a balanced patchbay will 99% of the time do no noticeable harm. By unbalancing the signal chain, it is conceivable that you might make things noisier, but if you don't hear any problems than there probably aren't any.
 
"could you go into full/half normal a bit?
"

ok, in order to type less, lets make up some names for a simple single vertical row of a patch bay. Once you get one set down youll have them all so lets call:

A=top row jack 1 of the patchbay, front side( the side you would see once its racked)

B=bottom row jack 1 of the patchbay front side

C=top row jack 1 rear side

D=bottom row jack 1 rear side

on a "parallel" or " open " type of patchbay block

A is connected to C, electrically they are the same connecto!r A ONLY goes to C, C ONLY goes to A,
B ONLY goes to D and D only goes to B

on a FULL normal block: here is where the magical switching happens :) ( patchbay jacks are special in that they perform a switching action)
with NOTHING plugged into A or B:

C connects to D

if you plug a jack into A, A goes to C and C NO LONGER goes to D
if you plug a jack into B, B goes to D and D NO LONGER goes to C

A NEVER EVER goes to B or D
B NEVER goes to A or C

on a HALF normal block
with NOTHING plugged into A or B:

C connects to D

if you plug a jack into A, A goes to C and C STILL goes to D, in fact A goes to C and D, C goes to A and D, D goes to A and C...you get the picture

however if you plug a jack into B, B goes to D and D NO LONGER goes to C

however however :) if you plug a jack into A at this time, A will still go to C but will NO LONGER go to D


EDIT:

I bet littledog finds a WAY more digestible way to answer this :)
 
"But, taking a big chance here, I'll go out on a limb and say that plugging balanced 1/4" plugs (not jacks - those are the holes) into an unnbalanced patchbay, or plugging unblanaced 1/4" plugs into a balanced patchbay will 99% of the time do no noticeable harm."

exactly

there MIGHT be some level problems( modern " servo balnced " I/O's take care of a lot of this anyhow), noise problems, and possibly ( some DBX gear, and others ) a phase problem, owing that not everyone agrees that tip = +

but youll prolly be OK

DONT try to plug a balanced phantom powered connection into an unbalanced one!!!

heres some more on this subject from an indisputable source http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an003.pdf
 
pipeline - can you reccomend some gear to buy as far as soldering? to get started with (i.e - never have to buy again..heh).

sounds like something that is worth picking up...

as far as everything else, i am way too tired right now. going to read again in the morning and hopefully it will make more sense...

i appreciate the time, hope you'll stick with this thread a bit longer and help me get it down solid ;)

-wes
 
as far as solering irons go, theres cheap and theres WAY expensive and theres in betweens like everything else

Radio shack ones may seem like a great deal some are somewhat OK and some are HORRIBLE abominations that will smoke after about 15 minutes

Weller has one under 50 bucks, the WLC 100. Ive had a pair of these for 4 years now, and one has JUST smoked just last week, the other is still fine...if it lasts a year of ME ( on at least 6 hours a day 3 days a week sometimes MUCH MUCH more) thats 50 bucks well spent!

This guy has easy to find ( nearly all hobby stores and electronic stores) replacement tips of many different shapes and sizes. Its got variable power, only thing missing for me is temperature controlled sesning( not the same thing as power control) but it works fine
 
alright, i read this all again - the half normal/full normal stuff makes sense...

but I am not sure what conclusion to draw from it. If I wanted to get something that will work best for my needs - full normal seems like it is "better" to have?

I'm looking at something like the Neutrik NYS-SPP-L...1/4", 24 front pairs and 24 rear pairs.

I am still confused on how exactly I would hook everything up (esp. the inserts)...but, would a unit like that be pretty flexible for me?

Also, talking about the XLR/1/4" conversion - if the preamp has 1/4" outputs as well I guess I could just use that and not even mess with XLR out.

I'll start with this question and then slowly catch up on how to wire it. Would that neutrik let me do 2-3 preamps, 2-3 inserts and the DI box...and let me easily select which combo of gear I wanted to use for each take, while tracking? (I thought this was what they did...but looking at it, I don't see how you "select" which gear you want to use on the fly.)

Or am I barking up the wrong tree? if so, please direct me to a unit that will work (or if you just hate the neutrik).
 
most 1/4" patchbays can do both open and 1/2 normal, and you change this just by flipping cards around..VERY easy

I had a customer order some nuetrik patchlinks, which may or may not be the same as those ones you linked to ( they "looked" very similar). They werent up to nuetrik's standards of quality tho. Only certain types of 1/4" jacks would make good connections. NONE of nuetriks 1/4" TRS jacks would work right with it surprisingly so we sent em back and ordered a mess of el cheapo Re'An's, and theyve been great so far...go figure
 
i was talking to someone at the music shop about which patch bay to buy etc, and he said he thought that a mixer would work better for what i am doing.

i know you spoke against this earlier pipeline...so i am not sure.

he said with a patchbay, i wouldn't be able to use multiple processors per track....and that with something like a Spirit M12 mixer, that has 6 auxes, I could have everything at the touch of a button on the mixer...

as well as use the EQ and such from the mixer.

He said I should even run the mics straight into the Soundcraft preamp with no gain, give it EQ before it is preamplified, and run the preamp like the RNP through on of the Aux inputs, and then the compressors etc. after that.

He said with all of the gear I have, I could have it all hooked up and working with the mixer...and as I added more, I could just switch a few cables around - which, I am getting the idea I would have to do with a patchbay anyways.

What do you think about that mixer idea? I also don't feel good about running something like a Great River pre through the Aux input - seems like it is lowering the quality of the great river to the quality of the soundcraft...somehow. Maybe not though..

Any advice based on that would be great.
 
I wouldn't listen to a thing that salesguy from your music shop says, ever again....

What a load of tripe.........!
 
The sales puke at your music shop doesn't know his ass from his elbow it sounds like.
 
DAMN!!! Blue Bear and Track Rat got yo back brutha! That salseman is a DOOF!

"he said he thought that a mixer would work better for what i am doing. "

it would be cool to have a mixer, but its not an " instead of " kind of thing

"e said with a patchbay, i wouldn't be able to use multiple processors per track....and that with something like a Spirit M12 mixer, that has 6 auxes, I could have everything at the touch of a button on the mixer..."

Arent you using software to do the EXACT same thing ?

"as well as use the EQ and such from the mixer. "

software again

"He said I should even run the mics straight into the Soundcraft preamp with no gain, give it EQ before it is preamplified, and run the preamp like the RNP through on of the Aux inputs, and then the compressors etc. after that. "

HOLY KRAP!!!!!

I tell you what, go back there tomorrow and tell him GIVE you a mixer, in exchange for you educating his stupid head!

" I also don't feel good about running something like a Great River pre through the Aux input - seems like it is lowering the quality of the great river to the quality of the soundcraft...somehow. Maybe not though.. "

trust your guts man, sounds like they are telling you straight! That is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard
 
i just don't get it.

i basically understand patchbays now...and, my overwhelming thought is "that isn't really going to work for me.."

maybe I am off there.

For a few minutes getting a mixer sounded like it would make life easier..

this really isn't about gear at all...I'm happy with the gear I have and the sound I can get...

Just want an easy way to have it all hooked up...everything is getting messy downstairs.

Still havn't been able to formulate my answer...need to get pipeline over to my house to set it up...

I'd settle for a blue bear ;)
 
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