Passive/Agressive mastering.......

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sigma9
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well said JR!

Im currently MIXING 9 songs, I have yet to master them. Bear , when I read my post I dont see where you get the idea that I want people to forget about sound quality. I even mention that if your spending too much time trying to "FIX" you need to redo.

Littledog: Not everyone who reads these threads will necessarily have your innate talent or finely honed skills, so it would be dangerous to recommend that less fortunate folks like me follow your path.

I dont claim to have innate skills, but I do claim to be reasonable to myself as should other less then innate home producers. My purpose here WAS to intentionally cause havoc and stir up discussion on this topic. I want to know what others think when they master thier music or someone elses. I believe JR posted it best
"Maintain the integrity of the original mix."
 
I wanna be a nascar driver
I bought loads'a books written by drivers, learned everything in it.
I build myself a car
I went racing
Now I'm dead:( :( :( :(
 
yikes

Seems like this thread was started with a chip on the ol shoulder!!
I guess...if someone has been doing this mastering thing for 10+years...you already have a good grasp on what needs to be done with a song as far as bringing out all the instruments clearly...and the forums here would be more inclined for you to then help new people learn that. A good thing for a person who is new to recording, mixing, and mastering their own music is to listen to how professionals do it....hence the comparisons....to get a feel for what needs to be done...and how far off they are. Of course its nice to have your own style...but your own style also needs to translate to almost any play back equipment and that is the hard part for newcomers...including myself. So...I would encourage people to compare...but keep their own ideals if they have them.
And...there is a reason why most bands (the actual players) who 'should' know what their music should sound like don't do the mixing and mastering. Sure they give their input...but I'm sure Ozzy wouldn't be able to master one of his own songs as good as someone who knows what they are doing!!
Its something that takes lots of time...and people should start learning from those that know what they are doing.
If you don't utilize a comparitive approach...perhaps a better way to address this thread would be to let people know how you do it...how you approach it...other than saying...'if you think it sounds good...it probably is!'
because...if your new to this...chances are...it actually doesn't sound that good.
 
damn, kormaniac -

now, why the hell couldn't i say it as well as you just did!

from now on i'm hiring you to master my posts! They'll certainly "translate " better!!!

:D ;)
 
JR#97 said:


The other thing that drives me nuts the most is people talking about mastering one song... that isn't mastering!!!! It's just more mixing!!!!
Click to expand...

That's the only part i disagree with in your truly outstanding post. Maybe it's just semantics, but if someone comes to my studio and does a song that is going to be released as a single, I still send them to the mastering engineer.

Maybe you don't do singles, or maybe if you do, you don't call it mastering. But plenty of projects besides complete CD's can benefit from the mastering engineer's touch, be it a jingle, a film soundtrack, a single song, a band or songwriter's demo, or whatever.

None of the mastering engineers I know ever turned me away from their door just because I didn't have an hour's worth of music in hand.

But, hey, I agreed with EVERYTHING else you said, so give me a little credit, at least! :p
 
littledog said:


That's the only part i disagree with in your truly outstanding post. Maybe it's just semantics, but if someone comes to my studio and does a song that is going to be released as a single, I still send them to the mastering engineer.

Maybe you don't do singles, or maybe if you do, you don't call it mastering. But plenty of projects besides complete CD's can benefit from the mastering engineer's touch, be it a jingle, a film soundtrack, a single song, a band or songwriter's demo, or whatever.

None of the mastering engineers I know ever turned me away from their door just because I didn't have an hour's worth of music in hand.

But, hey, I agreed with EVERYTHING else you said, so give me a little credit, at least! :p
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ok ok ok ......... basically anything that is to be duplicated/replicated can technically be mastered. I was mainly referring to posts in the clinic and stuff like that. I did spend most of my mastering career doing video, so I guess I shorted myself as well!
 
Need I remind some of you ...

... this website is called HomeRecording.com!?

Grrr. All this talk about "mastering engineers" and the pro way to do mastering has no place here, IMHO. If we all had deep pockets AND didn't care about learning this stuff then we would all just go out to our "local studio" and have _them_, the masters, record, mix/produce and master our music for us.

But then of course, we wouldn't have anything to talk about here and this website would cease to exist. =) Seriously, I'm here to learn stuff, not feel I did it wrong because some of you like to compare and others like to go with their gut reaction. Both ways seem right to me ... in their own unique situations.

What would be helpful here is if we could make a check list of things to do so mastering comes off smoothly and the end result is what you expected/wanted. I know everyone will have their own opinions but like any list, I'm sure it can be made general enough so that all can take away something from it.

Here's my attempt at starting this list:

1. Learn your equipment! You have no hope of recording/producing/mastering anything properly/decently if you don't.
2. Record your initial tracks seperately for the most control.
3. Learn about sound and how to manipluate it after the notes are played. (I guess you'd call this EQing?)
4. Learn about effects, including the notion of dry/wet and when to apply them. That is, should you apply them while playing the music or should you apply them during mixing/mastering? Or is both OK?
4. Watch your levels! High levels bleed sound and ruin the mix from the start. Low levels change the mood and may mislead the listener. Take you time here.
5. Don't be afraid to mess up. That's how you learn what not to do.

Fire away, all you mighty masters ...

p.s. A quick aside about sending music off to a mastering engineer ...

I read somewhere that on OU812 Eddie Van Halen was ripped about how that CD came out. He said that it had no bass at all and would have never been released like that if he were around during the final passes on the album. (I guess it was OK'd while he was away?) Can you imagine?

Man, I never would want that to happen to my music.
 
"I have produced songs before so how hard could this be?"

you gotta start looking for shelter when you read that !

" cmon pipe~!
You can reply more intellectually then that. Engage me, please."

what you are saying is closely akin to saying " I have peeled a potato, how hard could playing an yngwie solo on a guitar be?"

And probably as insulting to a mastering engineer ( not that I am one :) )

But then again, every once in a while, a guy pops up who can do it all. But truly its a unique discipline, with a unique set of tools and skills, not to be dismissed so easily
 
Re: Need I remind some of you ...

TommyGun said:
... this website is called HomeRecording.com!?

Grrr. All this talk about "mastering engineers" and the pro way to do mastering has no place here, IMHO.
Click to expand...
What nonsense........ an excellent way to learn new techqniues is to find out how something is handled professionally and glean what you can from that process for your own needs............

You want all the pros gone from this site so you can all discuss the merits of Radio Shack mics and 3630 compressors to your heart's content????

Gimme a fuckin' break................ :rolleyes:
 
HAHAHA gotta love Bear....

ok, so who hear has "Pro" experience doing this? Pro means , you got paid to master tracks for someone else, in a major/minor recording studio. Although I have done this in the past at home for some people and made money, most of my body of work was for me. Why dont we ask the Pro's here some real questions. What is the use for compressors and limiters while mastering. How DOES one keep the integrity of the composition while adding eq, filters, compressors and limiters and such. What if my mix is too thin, what is the proper way to add bottom without mudding up the mix? Lets talk about mid range frequinces, what to boost and what to avoid. Or should I just listen to what my ears tell me and forget about everything else?

P.s. pipe Yukme isnt hard to play, classical music is, hes a has been punk in fluffy cuffed shirt. Once again, your attemps to cleverly dodge the subject are notted, but trying to use guitar players was funny. you can keep Yukme malmstein, I take Vai
 
Re: HAHAHA gotta love Bear....

Sigma9 said:
Or should I just listen to what my ears tell me and forget about everything else?
Click to expand...

That is exactly what YOU should do :D
 
This **** is getting rich ...

Oh boy ... defensive are we? ;-)

What nonsense........ an excellent way to learn new techqniues is to find out how something is handled professionally and glean what you can from that process for your own needs............

You want all the pros gone from this site so you can all discuss the merits of Radio Shack mics and 3630 compressors to your heart's content????

Gimme a fuckin' break................
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Yeah ... you're right. Experience IS priceless. There is nothing better than learning from someone who's already "been there, done that". It trully saves us all time and money ... and I would value your opinions forever if I could just see past the condascending tone ...

LOL.

I don't want anyone to leave. Just don't presume that you are better or worse than me when you post your remarks and we'll get along just fine.

Here's something to think about ...

If mastering is so hard and only a few are really that good at it, then why should any of you "pros" have a problem with sharing all the proper steps?

I mean, there should be no chance in hell that 99% of the readers of this forum will ever be able to use that information in such a way that would push them into the top 1% of mastering engineers of the world, right? ... Or, is really just that easy to learn and you're are simply concerned that eventually the home studio jock isn't going to need you anymore?

It would be nice if you would let us decide if it's easy or not.

Show, don't tell.

Can anyone please comment constructively on my list? I would appreciate it.

Peace.
 
Tommy, I agree with most of your points in a general sense. But number two is kind of subjective in the way you could interpret it. Multi track for sure for the most mixing controll later but I'd prefere that a band plays as much of a tune together in real time as I think that's the best way to capture the groove, ya know what I mean? Sometimes building a song one instrument at a time is the only way to go, especially if you're working alone, but it's harder to make it feel spontainious like with all the little nuances going on when three or four people playing their asses off.
I definately agree that everyone should learn their equipment and ESPECIALLY their playback/monitoring system. I think this can only be done by listening to copious amounts commercially released material of all genre, but especially the style of music you'll be likely to work on as to learn how YOUR setup resolves it. No matter how you want your end product to sound, you have to know how a bass heavy commercial release sounds on YOUR system and how a bass shy commercial release sounds as well, etc, so you can better predict how your mixes will translate to a wide variety of playback systems.
 
Tommygun - about the 'homerecording' label on this site - that's just a name - there are quite a few engineers who come here, and the site's better for their experience and sharing. When an engineer writes something here, his/her terms of reference are professional, naturally enough. My advice would be: learn what you can from the pros, but if you think it doesn't apply to your situation or needs, then just ignore it, don't complain about it. (Alternately, give 'em shit but post a smiley with it. :D) Pros and homers can coexist on this site quite usefully, I think. I'm a homer, by the way.

Secondly, about mastering: it's not about 'the proper steps', it's all about experience and equipment. Guys with lots of experience and top gear *always* get better results than others.

Finally, that list you posted (the one with the bonus #4) is basically about recording and mixing, not mastering. Is that what you were trying to do?
 
"P.s. pipe Yukme isnt hard to play, classical music is, hes a has been punk in fluffy cuffed shirt."

thats not the point, his stuff is hard as HELL to play if youve never played a guitar before! Hence "I have peeled a potato, how hard could playing an yngwie solo on a guitar be?"

" Once again, your attemps to cleverly dodge the subject are notted, but trying to use guitar players was funny. "

IF you call that a dodge, you probably wont be able to comprehend the subtleties involved in masteringl. Its a pretty good analogy ( and its not mine).

"you can keep Yukme malmstein, I take Vai"

same thing, if all youve done in your life was peeled potatos, it woyldnt give you much hope of playing " the audience is listening" or whatever.

Mastering is a LOT a psychological thing. While we engineers, or musicians, need to zoom in real far, and be sure of tiny little details, make sure a pick hits a string at the same moment the drumstick hits the skins, a mastering engineer needs to zoom OUT and look at the whole picture of an album as a continuous living blob.

in the analogy above, you didnt see the point, instead you zoomed in and only saw " yngwie "...what does that tell you ?
 
I don't know why people get so touchy about Bear's posts. The guy knows his shit and chooses his words carefully...

and am I the only person inherently distrustful of anyone who ends their posts with "Peace" ?:confused: :rolleyes: :confused:
 
Re: Need I remind some of you ...

TommyGun said:
... this website is called HomeRecording.com!?

Grrr. All this talk about "mastering engineers" and the pro way to do mastering has no place here, IMHO. If we all had deep pockets AND didn't care about learning this stuff then we would all just go out to our "local studio" and have _them_, the masters, record, mix/produce and master our music for us.

But then of course, we wouldn't have anything to talk about here and this website would cease to exist. =) Seriously, I'm here to learn stuff, not feel I did it wrong because some of you like to compare and others like to go with their gut reaction. Both ways seem right to me ... in their own unique situations.

What would be helpful here is if we could make a check list of things to do so mastering comes off smoothly and the end result is what you expected/wanted. I know everyone will have their own opinions but like any list, I'm sure it can be made general enough so that all can take away something from it.
Click to expand...

Good points. Although I don't see why "All this talk about "mastering engineers" and the pro way to do mastering has no place here, IMHO." Mastering questions are pretty common, so what's wrong with a post giving a former mastering engineer's experience on what mastering is? Just because the site is "homerecording", I think it would be foolish to disregard any prorecording advise or experience. I mean hell, you don't try and do something like re-build your engine and then tell your mechanic friends to shut-up when they give you advice, do you?


p.s. A quick aside about sending music off to a mastering engineer ...

I read somewhere that on OU812 Eddie Van Halen was ripped about how that CD came out. He said that it had no bass at all and would have never been released like that if he were around during the final passes on the album. (I guess it was OK'd while he was away?) Can you imagine?

Man, I never would want that to happen to my music. [/QUOTE]

Well, Van Halen have never been known for having much bass anyway. 1984? 5150? EVH is also quoted many times saying that he doesn't like much bass and stopped working with Ted Templeman partly because of it. Anywho, you're also talking about a commercial release paid for by a label. Commercial artists rarely have any sonic control. In my career, if the client was a label or distribution company, they called the shots and did the approvals... not the artist. I guess that's part of the price you pay to be rich and famous and signed and all that stuff.

As far as holding back information in fear of a shrinking job market? Give me a break.... there are no little secret societies, handshakes, passwords, rituals, etc. in the mastering world. I attribute the fact that you don't see much mastering info posted by mastering engineers because there aren't many mastering engineers hanging around the forum. I"m talking about engineers that do specifically mastering.. not recording/mix engineers that also master their own work. And mastering is not hard. Hell, I find tracking and mixing a lot harder than mastering!
 
Hey it's a newbie ...

Track Rat, thanks for the tips. I do try to listen to as much music as I possibly can. Classical, Jazz, Rock, Rap and R & B mostly. Each type of music seems to have to be produced very differently to honor the mood of the genres. Is that true for you?

Dobro, I appreciate the help. I'm just trying to get a list together of all the steps, quirks, pitfalls etc that you need to get a song(s) from concept to master recording. Everyone has different approaches, so I understand this list will never be complete. But for sure there has to be a set of things that everywhere who's done this process before use to get through it. Over time that lists I would expect to become part of the person doing the work and their own gut instinct, knee jerk reactions, etc would come into play over time. I agree that good equipment with experience will get you the farthest, but I also think that good experience would help you get the best results out any equipment.

JR #97, thanks for your input. I guess you're right about VH. They don't have a lot of bass in their albums. I guess my point was based Eddie's remarks ... even a "pro" can mess up the final mix. But I digress on that point. Read on.

That's why I responded so abruptly to Blue Bear's Radio Shack comment (and the condascending remarks in general of other posters).

My point is this. If I had experience with Mic'ing I bet I'd do OK with that type of mic if I knew what to expect from it. It shouldn't matter what type of equipment I have if I know how to use it and know what I need to do with it. I could "get by" without many of you knowing what I used if I just knew what I was doing. Great equipment may make the process easier, but you still need to know your way around. People can agree on this point at least, right?

Lastly, if you are pro here and have been helping, I'm sorry if you took offense to my original post. I just hate it when certain people with "experience" have to be condascending to get a point across.
 
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my 2 cents

I had the priviledge to learn from a respectable Producer, Mastering Engineer. Throughout my travels as an Artist/Producer, I took note of all that he allowed me to learn, and even gave me a job as producer for some clients.

As time pressed on, I grew into my own studio: DM24,PRO-TOOLS, DP3, G4, TUBE GEAR etc... so eventually I cut my own CD and got down to the MASTERING, it's funny how quick things can happen when you have the ESSENTIALS, what goes in comes out, record correctly it will sound right, mixing is easier and MASTERING, though time consuming, if previous steps were taken even this comes easy------TO SOME.

But with technology exposed to the max everyone believes they can achieve this without learning the BLUEPRINT, :MIXERS routing, bussing, eq essentials, MIC placement & recording, Settings on Compressor/Limiter. Not to say "YOU CANT DO IT"

I'm saying learn, read, study the ESSENTIALS before attempting to do what your PLUG-IN says to do.

A lot of yall didnt understand your timetables till you did them over and over and over, though it was in the back of the book, it took you a while to get down pat ---- learn the ESSENTIALS
that's all........

Artist: BLISS
CD: JUST A MAN
Slated for 8/2003:cool:
 
sjoko2 said:
I wanna be a nascar driver
I bought loads'a books written by drivers, learned everything in it.
I build myself a car
I went racing
Now I'm dead:( :( :( :(
Click to expand...

LOL... ok Sjoko. Make sure you doing some recording in the next life. But for now send me all of your gear since dead people can't use it. You senior dudes should remember this thread :p

http://www.home-recording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37866&highlight=mastering

and this one;

http://www.home-recording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31902&highlight=mastering

I consider these to be the must reads before starting mastering at home threads!

SoMm
 
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