PA Choice?

maxabillion

New member
Hey, I wasn't sure where to post this, or even if this is the right website being that PA's tend to be more live oriented, not as much for recording, but any suggestions on a PA to buy? Obviously money is an issue, and I'd like to keep it around 5-700 dollars, but let me know if this price point is a joke. I would like as many mic inputs as possible (6-8 should be good) but I could do 4 if necessary, and of course it'd be nice if it sounds good - I didn't spend a bunch of time getting my right guitar tone just to have it fucked up by a shitty PA. Suggestions?
 
I guess the things that should be known to give you the best answer is - How big are the places that you'll be playing and how large of an audience to you expect?
 
Well, I figure I would be using this for anything up to around 150 people give or take (assuming larger venues probably have their own system?). At the moment, its mostly going to be used for rehearsals, but I would like something to be useful for small to medium gigs down the line as well.
 
Well, it sounds like you are doing a band. ?Drums, and what other instruments. You probably need 700 watts minimum, and 1000 watts or more, if possible. That is not impossible, but would be heroic on your budget. The real truth is that you need to find targets of opportunity in used gear. Every PA has the following: One or more mic inputs with mic preamps, one or more power amps, and one or more speakers. If it has multiple channels, it will usually have a mixing board or panel, often with reverb and some EQ available. It doesn't matter that much where these components are, physically. So- if I found a good used power amp for cheap, then I'd be looking for used passive speakers and a small unpowered mixer. If I found a good cheap used powered mixer, I'd be looking for good used passive speakers. If I got a deal on a pair of powered speakers, I'd be looking for an unpowered mixer with reverb and EQ. On your budget, building a PA has to be based on what used components you can get a good deal on. What kind of mixer you have determines whether you can use monitors, and what type they have to be. If you were buying new, I'd tell you to look at Carvin. However, your stated budget does not meet your needs without buying used, IMHO. And that doesn't include mics, cables, stands, etc. Good luck. We'll be there for you.
 
Yeah - just keep an eye on your local craigs list (maybe evilbay) and you'll find a bargain on a used PA that will not only be within your budget but will perform the duties that will fill the rooms that you will play including your rehearsal.
 
Frankly, I don't think $700 will buy an adequate PA that will last any time at all even on the second hand market (at least not unless you get very lucky). Your mention of guitar tone indicates you want something that sounds good and (for live) I'd also suggest you need more reliability than the super cheap stuff ever gives.

Since you mention that, initially, it's just for rehearsals, I'd suggest you put your money into a decent mixer (Soundcraft, A&H, Yamaha MG series) and a couple of monitor wedges which will be enough to rehearse with. Then, save you pennies and put the extra money you may have by then into a FOH system you can add to the mixer and monitors for a proper live show.
 
So in the event that I decided to build it up piece by piece, would it be better to buy a powered mixer or passive? What are the benefits to active vs passive mixers (and active vs powered speakers, too)? Is there a better sound quality/reliability having the active end on the mixer vs the speakers, or vice versa? I honestly don't know much about PA's having never owned one, so I din't even know that one could buy a passive mixer and still have it amplify the sound adequately. And everyone mentioned 700 probably won't cut it - what would a PA probably run me if i wanted one that will last a while?

By the way, I probably would be micing two guitars and two vocals, minimum, but would like to also potentially run a keyboard through it, and have the option to run a bass guitar, and another vocal or two (which is why I said I would prefer 8 channels, but 4 would do fine if it would be that big of a difference in quality for a fair price). I wouldn't need too many features from the mixer itself, although from the research I've done, some PA's offer panning control for each track, which would be nice to have. But would you say that it is necessary?

Sorry for all the questions - I just drank 4 cups of coffee haha
 
I've got perhaps $10k in my system that I consider good for rock concert levels for 200 or so listeners. With lower volume requirements it will cover a couple thousand. It does just short of 4000 watts to the mains (but watts are only part of the equation). With only 16 channels and two monitor mixes I do find it limiting sometimes.
 
I've got perhaps $10k in my system

Ouch. I'm going to assume that you're playing quite large venues? (200 people seems like a medium sized gig, is 4000 watts necessary for that sized crowd, or do you a lot of headroom?) Or is that about normal for a quality PA to play bars, clubs and parties and whatnot?
 
If you could go up like 300 bucks you could easily put together a used system.

Mixer
speakers
monitors
amps
cords
mics/stands

It adds up fast, and I have found out this fact the hard way. When you push a small system , bad things happen and it usually isnt during sound check!!
 
I wouldn't despair at BoulderSoundGuy's system- I bet it rocks! Are you talking about electric or acoustic guitars? Mic'ing an amp requires less power, because the amp already provides a bunch of wattage. It tends, on the other hand, to increase feedback issues and increase the need for monitors. You know, in the day, they didn't mic guitar amps until they got to the point of really large crowds. They just got bigger, and more, guitar amps. Is panning necessary? No. Is it nice? Yes, if the guy on the board knows what to do with it. For a beginner on the board, panning on a PA is often a pistol to shoot himself in the foot wiith. Larger systems also have crossovers to send low frequencies to their badass subwoofers, etc.

What are the advantages/disadvantages of component systems? Disadvantage- Often harder to move and set up, more cables to break. Advantage- When the powered mixer or PA head bites, the whole system is down until it's repaired or replaced. If the mixer goes down on a component system, you can grab almost any cheap mixer and jury rig it. The heart and soul of the thing is the power amp(s). When you blow a power amp, you feel much sticker shock. On the other hand, there a lot of startup bands using powered speakers like Eon. On a system like BoulderSoundGuy's, they would probably be monitors, if anything.

Sure, an unpowered mixer can work, but it needs a power amp somewhere, either as a standalone component, or built into the speakers. Here's a good deal, as they go, on an entry level system with a couple of mics thrown in, and reasonable customer service. 8 channels, 1200 watts, not a bad starting point. I was shocked to see it direct for $859.00:

CarvinWorld.com International - Guitars, Amplifiers & Pro Audio

Check out their other PA systems. Maybe someday you'll own that 10K PA, but right now, you need *something* to plug into.
 
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Okay, a few very general thoughts about what constitutes a PA system.

First off, don't underestimate what you need in terms of a mixer. It's probably the heart of your system. You'll need an input for every voice or instrument you want to put in the mix--and don't forget that some things like keyboards may want to use two (i.e. stereo) inputs. Also, be careful of the "mix" (pun intended) between microphone and line inputs. Some may be able to handle both but others may be line level stuff only. (FYI, when I say "line level" I'm thinking of things like your keyboard, perhaps the CD player you use for pre show music, that sort of thing.

However, besides the absolute basics, you also have to think about things like monitors and effects.

For monitors, you will want to use things called "Aux sends". These are the extra knobs on each channel strip and they allow you to send a feed of each channel to a separate output (or outputs) for the monitors. By controlling the level of the send on each channel you create exactly the mix you need in the monitors--maybe heavy on vocals and keyboard but light on rhythm guitar for example. If you want two different monitor feeds, you use two different auxes--and so on. Auxes are divided into "pre fade" and "post fade" which, as the names imply, are either before or after the main fader (which is used to control what's going to the main mix). Monitors are usually pre fade so changes to the mix don't affect what you hear in the monitors.

You may also eventually want to add effects--maybe a bit of reverb on the vocals for example. These can also use an Aux (usually post fade) but also require a spare channel to bring the effect back into the mix. (There's another way to do effects using what's called an insert--but this limits each effects box to a single channel. However, we can discuss these subtleties later.)

Anyway, if you think you need 8 channels now, I bet that within a few months you'll wish you had 16. Similarly, be aware of things like the number of auxes, the mix of line and mic level and all that tosh. Even if you don't understand it all now, it WILL become important as you start to use your gear.

After the mixer, you need to feed your mixes through an amp to some speakers. As you've already identified, some mixers have built in amps, while others (the majority) just give a line level signal you can feed into a separate amp. There are advantages and disadvantages to the question of whether you want a mixer with a built in amp. My personal preference is separate units just for the flexibility when something goes wrong--but, as I say, that's a personal preference. Just to add to the confusion, you can also get speakers with built in amps--you just feed an audio cable from mixer to speaker, plug the speaker into the mains, and you're good to go. Again, though, there are advantages and disadvantages.

The same applies to any monitors you want to use by the way--they also need an amp and a speaker and the amps can be in a mixer, separate or in the speaker.

Finally, as others have said, don't discount the number of mics, stands (mic and speaker) and cables you'll need to make things work. Then cases to protect everthing when you throw it into the van. It all adds up.

How much? I'm afraid that's a classic "how long is a piece of string" question. However, as a general principle, I'd suggest you plan on decent stuff second hand rather than cheap stuff new.
 
Wow, thanks for all the info guys!

I have a couple mics, cables and stands now, but will definitely need more. I do think that 8 inputs at the moment will serve my needs, and although Bobbsy did say I will eventually want 16 (and I know he's right in that assumption) I think the extra cost is too big of a determent right now. I checked out that Carvin package Richard Monroe posted and it actually looked great, but I noticed it only comes with mains, no monitors - which seems typical for most package systems (at least from what I've seen) so I guess I'll have to buy separate monitors. Just to clarify, do all PA/mixers have the ability to send to monitors and mains, or are there certain specs I need to identify for them to have this function? (it looked like the carvin one had 3 speaker jacks in back - is that where the monitors are plugged, or are they sent from somewhere else?)

By the way, I will primarily be micing amp cabs as opposed to acoustic instruments, so that will cut down on my need for power, but I do want as much in the mix as possible to get a balanced sound.
 
Just to clarify, do all PA/mixers have the ability to send to monitors and mains, or are there certain specs I need to identify for them to have this function?

For the most part, yes. Some mixer-amps have stereo amps that can be assigned as stereo mains or mono mains + monitor. Some mixer-amps just have a line output for monitors and you need another amp + passive wedges or some powered wedges. Really small mixer-amps may not have a separate monitor mix at all. If you start with a stereo/main+monitor type setup you can add a monitor amp later if you find you need more power or more wedges (two is probably the max from the mixer).

By the way, I will primarily be micing amp cabs as opposed to acoustic instruments, so that will cut down on my need for power, but I do want as much in the mix as possible to get a balanced sound.

You'll actually need more power to get the vocals over the racket coming from the amps. Acoustic instruments (aside from drums) don't drive stage volume up.
 
Ouch. I'm going to assume that you're playing quite large venues? (200 people seems like a medium sized gig, is 4000 watts necessary for that sized crowd, or do you a lot of headroom?) Or is that about normal for a quality PA to play bars, clubs and parties and whatnot?

With 3750 watts and speakers that can get loud enough I can consistently produce rock concert volume (>100dB C-weighted, slow response) all the way to the back of a club that holds 200-300 people and never run out of power or exceed the capacity of the speakers. Honestly, I rarely had to run it in that configuration (bridged sub amp) and usually had more like 2800 watts going to the mains. Of course I also had another 1000 watts going to the monitors. I used this system outdoors to cover something like 3000 people with clear sound at somewhat less than rock concert volume and just added one pair of mains to fill the far left and right of the wide audience area.

For more perspective, some loud national act concerts may have 1000 watts going to each wedge. My system is dinky compared to that.

Watts isn't the whole story. It's only part of the equation of loudness, speaker sensitivity and max SPL ratings being big parts of it. And how loud you need to get makes a huge difference.
 
Mo God! 1000 watts to a wedge? I'd be wearing HD280's turned off, just to attenuate 32 db of that racket. I understand they're not *using* all of that 1000 watts, but Jesus! If the guy in the back is getting 100db, the guy(girl) in the front row is sure going to remember how cool that was, at 60, when he's stone deaf. I determined years ago not to harm people unless I dislike them. And yes, that includes when they ask for it and like it. I think I'm not destined to work FOH for a national tour. Damn!
 
IT'S TONS OF FUN RICHARD AND MY -oops, sorry for shouting- my ear doctor says to always wear ear protection. ;)
 
Mo God! 1000 watts to a wedge? I'd be wearing HD280's turned off, just to attenuate 32 db of that racket. I understand they're not *using* all of that 1000 watts, but Jesus! If the guy in the back is getting 100db, the guy(girl) in the front row is sure going to remember how cool that was, at 60, when he's stone deaf. I determined years ago not to harm people unless I dislike them. And yes, that includes when they ask for it and like it. I think I'm not destined to work FOH for a national tour. Damn!

Well, I agree with your concerns about hearing damage, but these are jobs you don't get if your system can't do this. This is what the customer (venue, band, audience) demands. So no matter who provides for the show it will be loud. People are going to these shows in spite of, or even in part because of, rock concert volume levels and they have every opportunity to make a different choice.

When I mix live shows I don't automatically max it all out just because I can. I take into consideration the audience and venue and make it appropriate to the situation. A classic rock band with an audience of fifty-somethings doesn't need 100dB. A metal band with twenty-somethings in the audience may want more volume than I can provide (or am comfortable providing).

Note that I specified C-weighting that includes more LF and tends to show higher numbers than A-weighting when measuring music. A reading of 100dB C may come out to 94dB A. Also note that 1000 watts doesn't translate to any specific volume level until you put it through a specific speaker.
 
With 1000W most of that is eaten up by the low end of the speaker system anyways. ;)

True. Of those 3750 watts I mentioned 1950 watts go to the subs that cover from 35-100Hz (less than two octaves) while 1800 watts to the mains covers from 100Hz to 18kHz or so (over four octaves). Bass eats up a lot of power.
 
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