Overproducing!! what the ...

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CyanJaguar

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I've been hearing this taboo called overproducing.
Usually the overproduced mixes are the ones that you hear on radio.

I want my stuff to be slick, slick, slick.

So what the heck is overproducing, and do you personally believe that a tune can be overproduced.

My opinion is that you can't get enough producing.
Whats yours? Please give illustrations and examples.

peace
 
My thoughts...

You're overproducing when...

...you have 130 tracks of backing vocals, but you still feel you want a fuller-sound! (VV knows about this!) ;) :D

...you feel "limited" by the unlimited number of tracks in ProTools

...your effects are louder than the main elements in the song

...you can never use enough "delay"

...the "only" way to get a great acoustic guitar sound is 24 mics spaced around the room, and another 10 close-mic'd.

...you start a vocal session with the words "take 1... out of 654"

...anything less than 73 rhythm guitar parts is "too simple"

...your engineer says "the studio's run out of patch cords!"

Bruce
:)
 
I personally believe that the term "over produced" is used by those that do not have the talent, gear, and patience to achieve the same quality in sound that the "over produced" song enjoys!

Is a movie ever "over directed"? Is a book every "over edited"? Is sex "over rated"?

The problem with some of the things that Bruce listed is that they are seldomly the case in high quality sounding recordings.

That piece of shit mix that I recently put up in the Clinic will be my example.

The drum take was done in 2 takes. 2.5 hours setup time.

The bass took 3 takes.

The rythem guitar parts were all done in 3 takes or less.

The sole was done in 2 takes.

The lead vocal was done in one take with one punch in for the second verse (he mispronounced a word really bad, so we wanted to keep the integrity of the verse and redid the whole verse instead of the one word).

Most of the backing vocals were 1 or 2 takes.

Most of the time spent mixing (about 14 hours) was spent trying different effects to find ones that worked well with the song. About 1.5 hours was dedicated to automation (hard to do on a O2R mixer, but not too bad considering WHAT it will do). Most of this automation was applying mutes and a few volume changes so we wouldn't have to compress the hell out of things to keep them even.

Was that song "over produced"? At least one person thought so.

I have other recordings that I have spent far more time on to achieve lesser results!

Had we did some pre production for that song, the mixing time would have been half as long. We went into the whole recording phase with the attitude that this song would be pre production for the CD the band will record this summer. I can assure you that things will move much quicker as we will know what we want to hear while tracking, and, the band is so talented that most of the tracks will be recorded in less then 5 takes.

I don't call that over producing. I call that talent, patience to get the sound you want, and professionalism. If others want to call it over producing, then have at it. I enjoy hearing them bitch about not getting the sound they want on their "raw" recordings.

Ed
 
sonusman said:


Is a movie ever "over directed"? Is a book every "over edited"? Is sex "over rated"?
Click to expand...

Yes, Yes, and sometime, Yes. If a movie has very artsy shots, but you can't tell what the hell is going on. Or in the book, they just cut the hell out of the original book, and make it into a meaninless plot with no feeling. Or if have so much damn sex your nuts srivel from tiredness. Not saying that thats ever happened to me, but hey, it could happen.
 
sonusman said:
The problem with some of the things that Bruce listed is that they are seldomly the case in high quality sounding recordings.
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Well DUH! ;) I was TRYING to be funny!! :)

*sheesh* Good humour is lost on some people!!!

:D :D

Bruce


(ok - fine, I'll stick to engineering instead of comedy!)
 
I think a better term would be "over-processed", for what you guys are talking about.
 
The king of overproducing,,,,,,,

Mutt lange.... Better known as Shania's Husband, and the producer of Ac/dc's Highway to Hell, Back and Black, For those about to rock we salute you, Def Leppard, High and Dry, Pyromania, Hysteria, Adrenalize...Foreigner 4, XTC, Heart, also The Cars, Heartbeat City..... Bryan adams, Waking up the neighbors, 18 till I die. Billy Ocean ???, Micheal Bolton,, Recently, the Corrs.. (Leave me breathless).....Britney Spears newest single, "The last to know", Backstreet Boys, and all Shanias work..... Aside from the ACDC, this is probably the best composed list of overproduction..... Mutt is the guy known for doing 130 tracks of background vocals... (ie..Def Leppard) and yeah, Mutt is the voice for Def leppards BV.... He is also known, for not letting guitar players play chords, and instead tracking each string seperately, and layering chords string by string. Drums have to be sampled and quantized, even the most solid player in the world isn't good enough for mutt's likings.....The only guy willing to mix these monstrosities, is usually, Mike Shipley.. Who is so picky, he eq's every syllable of vocals differently.. I would say, Mutt is the king of overproduction, and I still Don't think it's over the top, cause it's made him a millionare, and he has produced, and co-written, about 100 songs, which were in the top ten, and are now considered classic's....So I think it works... when I put on a Mutt Lange production, I can hear, that it's so much bigger, glossier, fatter and layered.. yet still remaning clean and seperated......as opposed to most other recordings.....to me everything else seems a bit empty, and lifeless...But then and again, I am biased, cause Mutt is my "Recording hero".......Joe
 
Sorry bout the killer post above... let me sum it up for CyanJaguar......YEA!, i believe overproducing can be succsessfully achieved... Even though it's not everyones cup of tea, theres no disputing this fact, considering Mutt Lange's track record of hit albums.. I wouldn't call it taboo.. it is more popular in Commercial releases, than the under production method....If you want your stuff to be "slick", you gotta have the material, and the players... Cause one thing thats for sure, not even Mutt Lange can make "garage players" sound decent... Then when producing it, pay attention to every detail, Don't think of drums as a kit, think of them as individual instruments.. (I know it is opposite, of what others say, but you asked how to overproduce (in less words)...:) Same with guitar stings... seperate entities... keep everthing seperate.. I never "overdub".. I didn't buy a "multitrack" recorder so i can layer everything on 4 fucking tracks!!!!! I don't always use these methods, but if overproduction is your thing.. this is how.... Joe
 
CYANJAGUAR good post!

I have thought about this overproducing topic a lot.
With so many different types of music out there being played on the
radio, who is to say one is over produced or not.

Enya's music is over layered & over layered, it seem to me that she is an artist
that would be completely lost if it were not for the big production of midi, many
tracks and reverb.

Her CD's are SO produced that she has stated the she wishes she could tour, but
her music is to difficult to reproduce live. Does this mean she is any less of an artist?
That she over produces her songs?

As for myself, when I compose a song, I do not start with guitar, then say"let's see
what happens when we add bass". In my head I already hear all the parts I want.
I feel that part of my writing process is the recording. Therefore, my songs are never
complete until all the tracks are down.

Some songs may only be a guitar & a vocal. Other songs, vocal, harmony vocals, 5 or 6 part
backing vocals, acoustic guitar, electric clean flange guitar, distorted guitar,
lead guitar, bass, drums, piano, strings, organ, tambourine, so on & so on...

I'm on your side Cyan, do it till it feels right.


Love
Sean
 
The secret..

What you call overproducing is actually done by using all tube patch cables. It makes all the difference. I have about a dozen for sale, if anyones interested.
I too, would like to get that sheen... I always thought about that one-note-at-a-time thing, but that would end up creating a harmony, basically, and I dont think it would ring the same way, especially on distorted guitars. I think its all eq tricks. The masters NEVER let up on thier eq knowledge.
Paul
 
I must admit that I often use the "over-produced" terminoligy. It's most often a dig on the artist instead of the producer though. What the hell are you supposed to do when you've got to put out a decent product that reflects your work and the band can't play their own instruments. You must resort to tricks and toys! As a working musician/engineer, I have as much interest in how talented a band is as I do how their product sounds. It does bother me a bit from a musical standpoint when the best aspect by far on a CD is the production. Mind you, I'M NOT SAYING THAT'S NOT IMPORTANT- just that it shouldn't stick out like a sore thumb. If it does, the artist should go back to rehersal or take some lessons before cutting the tracks. I think as a rule with some possible exceptions, some of the best performers and producers are not "noticed"....Just one man's opinion though!
 
P.S. In short, "You can polish a turd, but it's still just shiny shit."
 
I think overproducing is best described as inappropriate producing. There are bands that cannot be overproduced, because their music demands such and such production (e.g. Enya, I think her music only works this way). But on the other hand, there are bands, that can be badly overproduced. A band trying to get a dirty rock sound can be polished to death!

David
 
ok. I think I have got it.

So, when a song is excellently produced, with everything in the perfect space, and at the perfect volume, with perfect tone, it is referred to as master production.

But when a production has multiple elements that cannot hope to be reproduced live, like 1500 backing vox and 20 helicopters and 10 different crying baby samples and stuff like that, THEN it is overproduced.

I certainly see how stuff can be termed overproduced in that sense.
 
I like Nessbass's definition. I generally use the term to describe pop music that has an artificial sound to it. Humor me while I try to decribe it. It's an inaccessible sound, kind of like the package is too tight. You can hear it coming out of the speakers but its like it never really reaches you, it's just there. Real articulate, I know.

I can think of some rock examples, but, like I said, usually I hear it in radio pop (which I'm not well versed in) I hear it in Brittany Spears' voice. That new Janet Jackson tune doesn't sound overproduced to me.

Then again, I'm one of those guys who believes in the aesthetic charms of raw and less than stellar recordings.
 
rgtkbjwo

"You can hear it coming out of the speakers but its like it never really reaches you, it's just there."

Cool description. Kinda like its all airy, or something. I love it and hate it at the same time. The ones I like the best take the light airy stuff and weave it through some in-your-face sounds too. That sounds awesome. Do you know what I mean, or am I buzzing again?

:)
Paul
 
But when a production has multiple elements that cannot hope to be reproduced live, like 1500 backing vox and 20 helicopters and 10 different crying baby samples and stuff like that, THEN it is overproduced.

I certainly see how stuff can be termed overproduced in that sense.
Thats Why bands which put out "overproduced" material, play along to backing tracks..... Even Aerosmith...Motley Crue... and Van Halen.... Usually it's just background vocals or keyboards.... For instance, I saw Aerosmith about 2 years back, I had shitty seats beside the stage and they had a keyboard player hidden down on the floor beside the stage, doing the brass and the pianos, for their ballads.... So many times, i heard piano, or strings, and he wasn't even touching the boards....And the Backing vocals on "Love in an Elevator".... the Ohhhh-Yaaaa... Was only sung by 3 of the band members on stage, yet, we were hearing about 20 layers of perfect vox, coming out the stacks.... I have a Shania twain live thing, and I do believe she lip syncs, alot of the time... One song, "Black eyes, Blue tears" starts out with her singing very high, and her voice cracks in the middle of one word on the studio album.... Well guess what.. the live album, is identical (vocal wise), same crack, same place.....(that just ain't coincidence.... I seriously don't even think her band plays, exept for the drummer... I have studied this video many times, and it all just sounds like a carbon copy of the album (barring drums).....(The vocals are a tad different in certain places though)......
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Whats wrong with my quotes?..... they used to be fine, they used to go bold, and say who Im quoting, but now just just look like the above....If anyone can help me with this that would be awesome...........
 
VOXVENDOR said:
Whats wrong with my quotes?..... they used to be fine, they used to go bold, and say who Im quoting, but now just just look like the above....If anyone can help me with this that would be awesome...........
Click to expand...

Make sure you don't erase the bracets when you post them.


On the topic...
Fact: Sometimes less is more.
Opinion: It is up to whoever is working on the song to decide what is to much.

I try to remember this fact while I work on my music, because if I don't I go tooooo far with everything(esspecially automation and fx's)

I see alot of producers approach songs like"well this song is okay, but I can turn it into a masterpiece!" Then its bye-bye Jeckle and hello mr. Hyde. If its an okay song, then make it a quality sounding okay song. There is a feel to every song, and I think when producers stray away from the feel and turn it into something its not, the song becomes overproduced.
 
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