Overhead 101

Greg_L said:
miroslav said:
Then go with Mid/Side....
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Don't do this unless your room and mics are really good.
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Well yeah...though the room and mics come into play with all OH rigs to some degree.

He was concerned about phase and the center the image. M/S removes any phase issues, and setting the center of your image is pretty straightforward. Just place your Mid mic right over your center element(s), and then add the Side mic.
You can then "spin" the M/S rig to whatever L/R direction you want to have.

Spaced pair is OK for getting a nice L/R spread...but you have to check that the center doesn't get a "hole".
With X/Y pairs, I never could get a decent L/R spread...though the center is always solid.

I would try all the setups and find the one that fits the situation/room/production best.
 
Goreliscious said:
Cheers for the help dude! One last question, (I hope!), with another one of my special visual aids...

You said your OH mics aren't the same height even though they're the same distance from the snare - surely that means the snare isn't in the centre and is more audiable in one mic?

If you look at my doodle the red dots are the 2 OH mics, both 50 cm away, but the left mic is actually closer to the snare in terms of horizontal distance. So if you recorded the snare with the mics at these positions, then panned the left mic to the left and the right mic to the right, the snare would be dominant in the left speaker making it off centre, no?

To make sure the snare is truely centre, haven't you got to make sure the 2 OH mics are equal distances away from the snare in both horizontal and vertical distances?View attachment 66094
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Forget horizontal distances. Run a fucking string or tape measure from the center of the snare straight to the capsule both mics. That's the distance. Vertical/horizontal means jack shit as long as the mics are higher than the snare.

Here's a quick pic. Both overheads exactly 40" from snare.

831f1049.jpg
 
Yeah I tried that, and because my left mic (like yours) was a bit higher than the right, it meant it was closer horizontally to the snare which meant I could hear it more in my left speaker on playback.

If you click your fingers 30cm directly above your head, then click your fingers 30cm directly to the left of your head - you can tell the difference! Isn't that essentially the same thing as having the OH mics at different heights? One appears to sound more centred than the other because it has to horizontally closer to the central point?
 
Goreliscious said:
Yeah I tried that, and because my left mic (like yours) was a bit higher than the right, it meant it was closer horizontally to the snare which meant I could hear it more in my left speaker on playback.

If you click your fingers 30cm directly above your head, then click your fingers 30cm directly to the left of your head - you can tell the difference! Isn't that essentially the same thing as having the OH mics at different heights? One appears to sound more centred than the other because it has to horizontally closer to the central point?
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You're overthinking this or simply don't understand.

The horizontal distance doesn't matter. Hitting the snare is like throwing a rock into water. The ripples emanate out in all directions. Sound doesn't just go left and right. It goes everywhere. The left mic is horizontally closer to the snare than the right mic, but it's also higher. The right mic is horizontally farther, but it's lower.

Left mic - Vertically higher/Horizontally closer.
Right mic - Vertically lower/Horizontally further.

If you set em up right, they'll split the kit into two halves and the snare will be dead center.

They're the same distance from the snare, regardless of their respective vertical/horizontal positioning, meaning the sound will hit each mic at the same time putting the snare in the center of the stereo image.
 
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And keep in mind that this is just my way of doing it. I'm not saying it's the best for you or anyone else.

Overhead placement, in any configuration, requires patience and precision. You can't just throw up some mics and call it done.
 
Greg_L said:
Except M/S uses a figure-8 that picks up every shit reflection in the room.
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Yes...M/S is a bit more "open" than the other setups.
I still like it the most of the three, but as you said, the room vibe and the mics are key...though isn't that often the case! :)

Also...(not trying to explain it to you, I know you know) the sound of the kit can be a big influence too on OH selection/position.
I have a decent setup with the M/S and my kit, and have managed to fine-tune it with each new recording.
 
Yeah, I completely get that, but there's something that's still bugging me that I can't articulate. I suppose one thing that's not helping me feel comfortable with the theory is that when I make the distance to both mics exactly the same, (but the heights different), and both mics are point straight downwards, and they're exactly the same mics with exactly the same leads and the gain on recording unit is set to exactly the same on both channels - why is one channel peaking before the other?

If everything is exactly the same, the mics should pick up the snare to the same volume.
 
I would think it's the directionality of whatever is making the one mic peak.

Stand 5' in front a guitar amp and take note of how loud it sounds. Now, while still at 5' away, drop down so that your ear is at the same level as the speaker.
Which sounds louder and is "peaking" more in your ear?

So...having both equally distant with one mic above and the other off to the side...ain't the same thing.

Also...a mic's polar pattern will not pick up equally from all directions...unless it's Omni.
 
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Goreliscious said:
Yeah, I completely get that, but there's something that's still bugging me that I can't articulate. I suppose one thing that's not helping me feel comfortable with the theory is that when I make the distance to both mics exactly the same, (but the heights different), and both mics are point straight downwards, and they're exactly the same mics with exactly the same leads and the gain on recording unit is set to exactly the same on both channels - why is one channel peaking before the other?

If everything is exactly the same, the mics should pick up the snare to the same volume.
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I don't know what to tell you then. Do something else. Maybe your differences in height and horizontal positioning are too much.

I move my OH mics around all the time to enhance things or change the tom spread. As long as they're the same distance from the snare, it stays centered.
 
Greg, you don't point the Right OH towards the snare?
Gore, as to why one channel is peaking, maybe you have it too close to something you're hitting too hard, like a cymbal? I've never had problems with OHs as long as they're equidistant from the snare pointing towards it, no matter where I move em, no matter how close/far I have em (within practical limits ofcourse) Everything else changes, stereo spread, hi hat volume etc, but the snare stays put right there in the center.
 
saads said:
Greg, you don't point the Right OH towards the snare?
Gore, as to why one channel is peaking, maybe you have it too close to something you're hitting too hard, like a cymbal? I've never had problems with OHs as long as they're equidistant from the snare pointing towards it, no matter where I move em, no matter how close/far I have em (within practical limits ofcourse) Everything else changes, stereo spread, hi hat volume etc, but the snare stays put right there in the center.
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Right. "Within practical limits" is something I should have specified, but didn't think I needed to.

Neither of my overheads are pointed right at the snare.
 
This is when I was playing straight 1/4 note hits on the snare on it's own to set the gain.

I think I'm just gunna try and ignore any nigglings at the back of my mind with regards to heights and angle and just whack up 2 mics of equal distance from the snare - 1 above the furthest drum/cymbal to my left (not incl. H.H) and 1 above the furthest drum/cymbal to my right and be done with it.

It seems to be the way I get the widest sounding kit, even if it means my ride sounds like it's near the centre of my kit whereas in reality it's on my right hand side. I'd like to have both overheads 90 degrees left and right of that imaginary line that runs through the centre of my snare/bass drum, but the mics end up not actually being over anything in particular.
 
Goreliscious said:
This is when I was playing straight 1/4 note hits on the snare on it's own to set the gain.

I think I'm just gunna try and ignore any nigglings at the back of my mind with regards to heights and angle and just whack up 2 mics of equal distance from the snare - 1 above the furthest drum/cymbal to my left (not incl. H.H) and 1 above the furthest drum/cymbal to my right and be done with it.

It seems to be the way I get the widest sounding kit, even if it means my ride sounds like it's near the centre of my kit whereas in reality it's on my right hand side. I'd like to have both overheads 90 degrees left and right of that imaginary line that runs through the centre of my snare/bass drum, but the mics end up not actually being over anything in particular.
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Mine aren't over anything in particular either. My "centerline" goes through the snare, kick, and part of the right rack tom. I configure my overheads so those things are as centered as I can get em. I've got the hats, 2 crashes, and the left rack tom getting picked up mostly by the left overhead, and 2 crashes, 2 floor toms, and the ride being picked up mostly by the right overhead. It all balances out to sound pretty much like the kit sounds with me sitting at it.
 
saads said:
They're not cymbal mics, they're there to capture the kit. They don't have to be over anything in particular.
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Good point. That sparked another question but alcohol has fogged my thought process and I can't remember quite what it was. Something to do with panning toms and how panned overheads match up with panned toms. Don't worry Greg, up till this point I've been sober and absorbing all info - I can imagine you in Abbottabad with a suicide I.E.D ready to blow from stress of me not understanding this crap. There aint no virgins for you. Just 99dB.
 
Goreliscious said:
Good point. That sparked another question but alcohol has fogged my thought process and I can't remember quite what it was. Something to do with panning toms and how panned overheads match up with panned toms. Don't worry Greg, up till this point I've been sober and absorbing all info - I can imagine you in Abbottabad with a suicide I.E.D ready to blow from stress of me not understanding this crap. There aint no virgins for you. Just 99dB.
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Lol. WTF are you talking about? :laughings:
 
Your location says Abbottabad, suice bombers are promised 99 virgins, stress makes ppl do extreme things, this is a recording forum hence dB not virgins.
 
Goreliscious said:
Your location says Abbottabad, suice bombers are promised 99 virgins, stress makes ppl do extreme things, this is a recording forum hence dB not virgins.
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Lol. Gotcha. The problem with islam is they don't tell you what kind of virgins you get. They could be virgin boys.
 
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