Outboard gear vs. software

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woody777

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Just curious - how many of you use outboard (rack) gear for mastering and how many of you use software? What are some pros and cons of each? I'm just getting into using Sonar 2.0 and I don't own a single piece of outboard gear. Just wondering how software vs. hardware compares in terms of sound quality and ease of use.

Thanks!
 
woody777 said:
Just curious - how many of you use outboard (rack) gear for mastering and how many of you use software? What are some pros and cons of each? I'm just getting into using Sonar 2.0 and I don't own a single piece of outboard gear. Just wondering how software vs. hardware compares in terms of sound quality and ease of use.

Thanks!
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The general consensus around here has been that any software plug that emulates a hardware version tends to be subpar. If analog is involved then hardware versions are a plus.

Not to say that the plugs arent good though. I like the waves stuff myself.

Malcolm
 
For mixing I prefer outboard gear, but I will use software from time to time.
 
It's also a lot easier to sell a used $1000 hardware box than it is a plugin.
 
TexRoadkill said:
It's also a lot easier to sell a used $1000 hardware box than it is a plugin.
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Though who knows why you would want to!
 
The better digital converters get, the more convinced I am I will use my analog outboard gear forever. I have yet to hear any plugin yet that sounds like a Massve Passive, an Ibis, etc. That day will come probably, but for now if you want a polished class A sounding master, plugins wont get you there.

Eagle Ears
The Mastering Lab at Eagle Ridge
 
Re: Re: Outboard gear vs. software

malcolm123 said:
The general consensus around here has been that any software plug that emulates a hardware version tends to be subpar. If analog is involved then hardware versions are a plus.

Not to say that the plugs arent good though. I like the waves stuff myself.

Malcolm
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Not always the case. There have been null tests done against the hardware and software versions of Waves L2. The results were that they nulled completely meaning that they produce the same results. Remember that in digital based hardware you are using software anyway so if the plugin is engineered properly (as in the Waves plugins) you should get the same results.

Part of the problem lies in the algorithms used to emulated old hardware units. For example it is very difficult to simulate how a tube device reacts with the limited processing power of most PCs and being able to accomplish this in real time. For old vintage type units, you are probably better sticking with the real tihng if you want that character or sound.

In other words can an L2 plugin sound the same as the L2 hardware? Absolutely.

Can a Bomb Factory LA-2A plugin sound as good as the real thing? Depends on how it's pushed.
 
hallelujah masteringhouse.

there are software plugins that beat the pants off of outboard gear. it depends on how well the software was coded, and what outboard gear you are putting it up against in the comparison.

it amazes me how many people on this board start spewing about outboard this and that, when if they cracked their "outboard" gear open all they would see is a RISC chip a D/A converter and an A/D converter. oh, that's some real analog stuff ya got there.

btw, i also use Waves.

RISC = reduced instruction set computer
 
ChristopherDawn said:
WE WON'T SPEAK OF SUCH THINGS IN THE HOLY LAND!!!
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The holy land must be Brooklyn NYC.... land of $1800/month rents. I'd have a racks full of Universal Audio and Empirical Labs if I still lived in Buffalo.... but the girls would be fat. :D
 
crosstudio said:
hallelujah masteringhouse.

there are software plugins that beat the pants off of outboard gear. it depends on how well the software was coded, and what outboard gear you are putting it up against in the comparison.

it amazes me how many people on this board start spewing about outboard this and that, when if they cracked their "outboard" gear open all they would see is a RISC chip a D/A converter and an A/D converter. oh, that's some real analog stuff ya got there.

btw, i also use Waves.

RISC = reduced instruction set computer
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i think when the guy was talkin about outboard he meant 'real' outboard like empirical labs, avalon, cranesong....things that are downpayments on cars...s/w plugs are good but harder to get that sound you want then it is with h/w at least thats what the 'big dogs' tell me...my limited experience tells me the same
 
i agree teacher, software reproduction of great analog hasn't happened yet, but software reproduction of good analog has.

since he started the thread by saying:

I'm just getting into using Sonar 2.0 and I don't own a single piece of outboard gear.
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led me to believe that he wasn't necessarily talking about great analog gear.
 
ok...i just wanted to clarify that point to people reading the thread....Ren Comp is not as good as a distressor guys...plain and simple...
 
I use a mixture of both outboard analog stuff and some plug ins. I like the Waves stuff a lot.
 
Teacher said:
ok...i just wanted to clarify that point to people reading the thread....Ren Comp is not as good as a distressor guys...plain and simple...
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Teacher - You are comparing apples to oranges. I could argue that a Distressor doesn't sound as good as a Crane Song STC-8 (both analog units) for mastering purposes. However a distressor is better suited for mixing and cutting when you want that sound. It's the application that's significant, not if it's analog, a plugin or digital hardware.

A better comparison would be how does Universal Audio's LA-2A and 1176 plugin compare with the original analog units.

Some info here:

http://www.digidesign.com/digizine/archive/digizine_october03/centerfold/

BTW - My point here is to compare plugins V.S. their analog counterpart. In general I agree that you should have a combination of analog and digital outboard gear, as well as a good array of plugins. What is really comes down to is what is the best return on your dollars spent. If you can afford an original vintage unit, by all means it's an investment that will give you a greater return in the long run over a piece of software. On the other hand if your goal is to create the best audio possible on a limited budget, invest in what is going to give you the best improvement per dollar.

Obviously you can't create a microphone, preamp, or speaker with a plugin. If I was starting out, that's where I would spend all that I could afford first. Having a great piece of analog outboard gear and crappy preamps, mics, and speakers is not going to get you anywhere.
 
i agree....

just let me know when you wanna sell your distressor for cheap cuz you ahve plug-ins that will do the duty...i'll buy it! :D
 
Teacher said:
ok...i just wanted to clarify that point to people reading the thread....Ren Comp is not as good as a distressor guys...plain and simple...
Click to expand...


Yeah,
I was thinking in terms of Mastering. I would imagine that pro mastering gear would be far superior to plugins. For mixing and some mastering plugs will do, but for high end mastering, especially analog, Im sure plugs wouldnt come close.


Malcolm
 
malcolm123 said:
Yeah,
I was thinking in terms of Mastering. I would imagine that pro mastering gear would be far superior to plugins. For mixing and some mastering plugs will do, but for high end mastering, especially analog, Im sure plugs wouldnt come close.
Malcolm
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Not always. I wouldn't want to master completely with plugins alone, but use a combination of what is best for the application or problem you are trying to solve.

There is a general misconception on this board and elsewhere that

analog=good/high quality
digital=bad/low quality
and further, plugins=bad digital

This isn't necessarily the case. I own (as well as people like Bob Ludwig and many other top engineers) digital outboard gear like the Weiss EQ1 and DS1 that will beat the pants off of many high-end analog pieces (These units aren't cheap, they're in the range of $4K a piece). Digital units are great for getting hi gain that isn't possible with analog (the L2 is probably the best example of this), as well as EQ without the phase distortion inherent in analog units.

There are also things that I can do with a Waves EQ (Master's Bundle) that I can't do with the Weiss units. Things like resonant shelving and hi/low pass filters. In fact I have yet to find an analog EQ that is capable of this either.

Likewise the Crane Song Phoenix plugin is fantastic for simulating tape as well as the HEDD digital outboard processor.

Digital gear/plugins are generally cheaper than their analog counterparts because of the components required in building them cost less not because they are inherently inferior.

I also own various analog pieces and use them when I feel there is an advantage, but prefer to stay digital as going through another D/A and A/D conversion is going to help the process.

It's always easy to blame gear for bad mixing and mastering. I constanly read things on the board that suggest "my mixing/mastering will be so much better with this analog piece or that piece of hardware". In some cases it may be true, but KNOW YOUR GEAR and make the best use of what you have, don't just throw money at a problem and hope that it is going to fix a lack of experience or a problem that may have it's root elsewhere. Know and thoroughly understand what problem you are trying to solve and fix it at it's source. Rent an expensive piece of gear before buying to see if it actually solves the problem you are trying to fix.

You may be surprised at the results ...
 
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