Out of phase lav mics

gooley

New member
This isn't quite a recording question, but since I don't know of any live sound forums...

I'm helping with sound reinforcement with my school's musical, and we're using wireless lav mics usually placed on actors' heads. I've noticed that when two strong-voiced performers face each other and are relatively close on stage, we get a nasty out-of-phase tone from the singer. How can I avoid or get rid of this problem?

I don't particularly like the idea of switching the phase of some of the mics from the board throughout the play - if that would even work - but that's all I can think of.
 
The standard practice is to turn one of them down, and use the other to pick up both people while they are near each other. Just remember to readjust when they move apart.
 
Gotcha. We had been doing that before, but it's sort of hard to control sometimes when there's a lot of sudden movements. Oh well.

Thanks.
 
If it were me, I would make note in a rehearsal of which mics are involved in the scenarios where you have the issue. Based on that I would see which mics you might be able to reverse the polarity on for the whole show to help the issue. Reversing the polarity won't hurt anything or even really change anything except maybe help the problem you are having. Just make sure if you do that that you try and find which mics to do that too so that you don't end up with the same problem due to 2 singers getting close and strong like that and having both of their mics out of phase. Another thing you can do is try panning each of the offending mics a little. The further away from center you get, the less noticable it will be. Hopefully you can just add a little space between them without really creating too wide an image out of it.
 
This is probably going to sound really dumb ... and coming from a guy who's never done sound for live theater, but is it possible to try putting a 30 ms delay on one of the mics ? Is that something that's ever done?
 
This is probably going to sound really dumb ... and coming from a guy who's never done sound for live theater, but is it possible to try putting a 30 ms delay on one of the mics ? Is that something that's ever done?

The bleed into the other mic won't have any delay.:(
 
Adiing a small delay like Daisy mentioned should work and the end result may not have any real noticable phasing issues, but could result in an unnatural doubling effect that most theatre singers (at least producers) may not care for. However, it may solve the issue at hand with the cancellation. I personally would prefer that if no cleaner method can be found. However, it also seems to me that just reversing the polarity of one of each pair of offending mics may be the better solution. This is also assuming that reversing the polarity actually solves the issue. It may just change it. Without trying it myself in that exact same situation (same voices, mics, performers, room etc...) I can't say for sure if polarity reversal would solve the problem or just change it. I know that in the "technical" application it would just change the problem, but in the "real world outcome" it may solve it.
 
This isn't quite a recording question, but since I don't know of any live sound forums...

I'm helping with sound reinforcement with my school's musical, and we're using wireless lav mics usually placed on actors' heads. I've noticed that when two strong-voiced performers face each other and are relatively close on stage, we get a nasty out-of-phase tone from the singer. How can I avoid or get rid of this problem?

I don't particularly like the idea of switching the phase of some of the mics from the board throughout the play - if that would even work - but that's all I can think of.
Turning down one of the mics when they get too close is what I do. Normally though, they should not be facing each other. They should both be facing the audience when singing if possible.
 
That's kinda' the whole point.

:D

No, it won't work. The problem would only get worse. The comb filtering is coming from the delay that results from the guy's voice hitting two mics at different distances. Adding more delay isn't going to help anything. Might be fun tho.:p
 
Before you blindly knock the suggestion, you might want to try it first. Delaying one of the mics so that the signal arrives on both times at the console may really help. Also, delaying it enough to be different enough to seperate itself more from the original and extra mic may also cover the problem up enough to net a less phased sound. My gut says this still is not the best solution, but there is a good chance it may work. In fact, I think that a small delay would still help the problem more than it hurts it. Just not the method I would try first. Its a similar solution to delaying your mains to line up with the downstage edge of the monitors if they are that loud or delaying them all the way back to the guitar cabs on stage if the cabs are that loud.
 
Delaying one of the mics so that the signal arrives on both times at the console may really help.


Also, delaying it enough to be different enough to seperate itself more from the original and extra mic may also cover the problem up enough to net a less phased sound.

The first part would only work if you know the exact distance between the two, and only then if they don't move at all; this seems like an unlikely scenario to me.

And delaying anywhere from 20ms and up will possibly produce a sort of echo effect.



The best solution is to ride to faders and bring them up line for line. This is generally how lav mics are dealt with in the musical theatre industry. That not being possible (two singers singing a duet), try to have them not face each other.

An option would be to delay one mic by about 10-15ms, which is too short a delay for the brain to distinguish 2 separate sounds (ie, an echo), but long enough to push the phase problem low enough down the frequency band to be able to EQ it out with ruining your vocal sound.

The problem is, having 2 people on stage close to each other with lavs that are both on open channels results in phasing; there's not a whole bunch you can about this..
 
True, I never meant to use 30 ms as a defacto, just that delaying one of them may work. This is one of the problems I have in live sound with people that come out of recording schools or have "formal" training and such. What they learn in books and classrooms is usually true and real, but the way some of those principles actually apply and result in the real world is not always the same. Sometimes things like this break rules even though scientifically they should result in a problem. In real world live sound we have to do things all the time that "break the rules", but sometimes they acheive the goal the way we need them too. I guess a big part of the difference is that in a live scenario we have all sorts of things thrown at us that are out of our control and have to be dealt with immediately and effectively and may not result in the perfect circumstance, but has to be done quickly and effectively none the less.

As far as theatre goes, performers are not supposed to always face the audience as it is a part of the choreography that just has to be there sometimes. Reversing polarity of one of the mics is the quickest and easiest way I know of that often alleviates this problem, or at least nets a better result than doing nothing. Fader riding is also very effective, and truth be told is actually a part of the FOH engineers job. With digital consoles you have the advantage of being able to program scenes in which certain mics may have reversed polarity while others don't. You can also program slight pans in place in your scene to seperate the two offending mics. One of the big differences that haunts us at times and in this case can also be very helpful is that we also have to deal with large and certainly more complicated rooms than a studio environment and with a system that is not as well tuned for that space and operates very differently (in the real world outcome sense) than a studio monitoring environment. These rooms can actually be good for making it easier to mask some of these phasing issues due to room tails and reflections. Panning just a little can often times easily help to alleviate singular phasing issues like this that come and go due to quick changes of location and volume on stage. Analog consoles are often a little nicer in the sense that you can usually make something like the panning or polarity reversing happen quicker and a little more "on the fly", but you lose the ability to program all of your minor changes into recallable cues or scenes for different parts of the show.

The fader riding on a line per line basis is one good way to help combat this but doesn't do much for you when they are close like this and singing simultaneously, which is pretty frequent in the theatre industry when you have two performers facing each other at these types of distances. Keep in mind too that even a 30ms delay one one mic may not net much of an echo in a live setting where the signal to noise of one singular source between two mics might be different enough. This is why I reccomended trying it and not blindly writing it off.

I have actually battled both this exact problem and other similar ones on many occasions. In fact, I probably will be fighting it next week since my company will be running a local theatre production and renting them 12 wireless mics, three floor mics, and 8 hanging mics. At this point you have interaction from 4 different points and sometimes more. It happens a lot with pianists that sing. I remember doing sound for Joe Jackson playing a solo set on a grand piano. He played so soft and sang so loud that I actually had to delay his voice AND change the placement of the piano mics to keep his voice from phasing out through the two piano condensors. It also happens a lot in clubs and such where the monitors might be so loud for a singer that they interact directly with the vocal mics signal. In this event though a simple polarity reverse usually helps this problem which is pretty quick and easy to do.

I guess, you basically have to resolve yourself in a live situation that sometimes you will never be able as an engineer to actually FIX certain problems. What can always be done though is find a way to treat the symptom in such a way that the undesirable affects of the problem are minimized, at least for #1 the crowd, and #2 the performers.
 
Before you blindly knock the suggestion, you might want to try it first. .

Oh, sorry. I should have said, hey guys, I've done probably a 100 shows covering eight or ten musicals in the last five years with exactly this situation, and the only thing that works is actually mixing the fucking show like a man, and riding the mic levels up and down.
 
Sorry man, I did not mean it to sound like a personal thing. I am just merely relating my experience. If we want to throw out numbers though, I have done 100 shows or more in the last year encompassing 8 or 10 musicals. I run a live sound company, and am also the head engineer that does a lot of both community theatre and road shows. We also own 3 dozen wireless mic systems so I use them a lot. With community theatre especially things like this become an issue when you have performers that don't really understand some of these things. All I am saying is that before you blindly shut down suggestions, consider that every scenario is different and therefore demands a different approach. You may think that fader riding is mixing like a man, but I say screw that and mix like an engineer. Try different things to find the proper solution and don't be afraid to at least try things that might at first seem unconventional. Fader riding does nothing to solve this problem IF there are two singers facing each other and exhibiting these symptoms AND singing at the same time. I know from experience (12+ years and well over 3000 acts) that polarity reversal can solve some of these problems. If you really can't understand that these are just suggestions and may or may not work in this situation, then I feel bad for you because you may be cheating yourself out of learning new tricks. Delay, polarity, EQ etc... are tools that can be used. Sometimes they are effective, sometimes not. You made a bold and definitive statement without consider all of the options and I merely pointed out that it may not be that way. There is also a good chance that in this specific situation you may actually be right, but just because that possibility exists does not mean that maybe a couple minutes trying these solutions isn't worth it.
 
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