Otari, Unbalanced. Can I use Balanced connectors?

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mtn. moonman

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Alright. First post. Longtime gearslutz forum member joined here for the Analog Only forum. Now, my first question is: Does the "only" restrict me from analog/digital hybrid questions? I hope not. Well, before I get an answer I better hurry and ask my hybrid question : )

I have just entered analog realm having recently acquired an Otari MK 5050 1/2" 8 track and a Yamaha M916 mixing console. Great deals. Great conditions. Very excited.

I had the tape machine serviced and the tech told me the I could use balanced XLR and/or TRS cable connectors with no problem. But the machine is unbalanced (xlr), and there is much talk about connections needing to be rewired. So is he suggesting I use the machine in a less than optimal fashion. Maybe he just couldn't explain it in a way that I could understand? But neither does the manual or any other thread I've read provide clarity.

This is how I will be using the machine (again, the manual says it's connectors are XLR unbalanced):

1. OUT of DAW interface (mr816x, trs) > INTO Otari
2. OUT of Otari > INTO DAW interface (trs or xlr)
3. OUT mixer (Yamaha M916, xlr or 1/4" insert out) > INTO Otari
4. OUT Otari > INTO mixer (xlr)

Thanks,
Matt
 
You sure can, you just want to be aware that the Otari (unless it has been rewired) is pin3 hot (ring) and your interface is pin 2 hot (tip). If you take standard xlr to trs or ts cables it won't work because your signal conductor will be shunted to ground. Check to see if the Otari was already converted to pin2 hot and if not your cabling will need address getting pin3 of the xlr end to the tip of the trs or ts connector.
 
The unbalanced is not much of an issue...just wire the unbalanced---balanced cables correctly and keep them short.

However, you have two differernt things (DAW and Mixer) both going into the OTARI, so are you planning to connect/disconnect back-n-forth...or....?
 
sweetbeats said:
Check to see if the Otari was already converted to pin2 hot and if not your cabling will need address getting pin3 of the xlr end to the tip of the trs or ts connector.
Click to expand...

A little bummed that the tech that serviced the machine doesn't know the answer to this (I called him). He suggests to just "try it out". I want and need to learn about how to work on the machine, but I got this serviced by a professional so that it would be record-ready. It looks like I'll need to order some adaptors? I have some xlr (female and male) to trs (male) adaptors but that's not gonna help, right?
 
miroslav said:
The unbalanced is not much of an issue...just wire the unbalanced---balanced cables correctly and keep them short.
However, you have two differernt things (DAW and Mixer) both going into the OTARI, so are you planning to connect/disconnect back-n-forth...or....?
Click to expand...

What about adaptors? Don't want to convert/rewire my short supply of mogami cables. Yes, back and forth. Sometimes I'll record straight to tape (tape>mixer), sometimes I'll be bringing digital tracks to tape (interface>tape and interface>mixer>tape), as well as tape>interface and tape>mixer>interface
 
Most XLR to 1/4 TS should be OK as the ring (- cold) on your balanced TRS jacks will just go to ground. The question is how the XLR at the Otari is wired.
Like mentioned...first thing is that the + is on pin 3, so you would want to convert that to Pin 2 at the Otari so it ends up at Tip on your cable, since most ready-made adapter cables would have Pin 2 as the +/Hot going to Tip at the other end.
Then check to see where the ground is wired on the Otari XLR...to Pin 1...?...Chassis...?...Pin 2...?
Ideally, if your 1/4" TS is wired Tip/Hot+ and Sleeve/Ground...then I would make the Otari XLR as Pin 2/+/Hot and just bring the Ground to the Chassis and maybe also Pin 1...and let Pin 3 stay empty.

If you want some great tutorials on how to wire unbalanced/balanced gear...go the Rane website and check out some of their Tech Notes.....lots of good info there.
 
Blue Jinn said:
Are you sure the i/o's from the DAW are really balanced (are they active balanced?)
Also, the Otari manual may have suggestions for wiring as well, but you should be able to consider the Otaris XLR as any kind of unbalanced connector in the above reference.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the links! Going to take a few reads to wrap my head around it. Not sure if the interface (MR816x) is really balanced, the manual says, "supports both balanced and unbalanced signals". Nothing about what it puts out.
 
miroslav said:
Most XLR to 1/4 TS should be OK as the ring (- cold) on your balanced TRS jacks will just go to ground. The question is how the XLR at the Otari is wired.
Like mentioned...first thing is that the + is on pin 3, so you would want to convert that to Pin 2 at the Otari so it ends up at Tip on your cable, since most ready-made adapter cables would have Pin 2 as the +/Hot going to Tip at the other end.
Then check to see where the ground is wired on the Otari XLR...to Pin 1...?...Chassis...?...Pin 2...?
Ideally, if your 1/4" TS is wired Tip/Hot+ and Sleeve/Ground...then I would make the Otari XLR as Pin 2/+/Hot and just bring the Ground to the Chassis and maybe also Pin 1...and let Pin 3 stay empty.

If you want some great tutorials on how to wire unbalanced/balanced gear...go the Rane website and check out some of their Tech Notes.....lots of good info there.
Click to expand...

Thanks Miroslav, even though it's bad news : ) I just can't believe that I spent $300 on service/calibration and that this was not addressed. Anyways, the Otari manual says "to wire mating plugs"..."connect the signal leads of a cable to pin 3 (high) and pin 2 (low)...shield to pin 1...connect jumper from pin 1 to pin 2." (two-conductor). "Center conductor...to pin 3...shield to pins 1 and 2." (single-conductor)
 
That's fine...just reverse the instructions for Pin 3 and 2...because most other gear is Pin 2 + (high), not Pin 3.

You can leave the Otari wired as is...but at the other end of your cable flip Pins 2 and 3.
 
miroslav said:
That's fine...just reverse the instructions for Pin 3 and 2...because most other gear is Pin 2 + (high), not Pin 3.
You can leave the Otari wired as is...but at the other end of your cable flip Pins 2 and 3.
Click to expand...

thanks. head is beginning to wrap around
 
Last edited:
miroslav said:
That's fine...just reverse the instructions for Pin 3 and 2...because most other gear is Pin 2 + (high), not Pin 3.
You can leave the Otari wired as is...but at the other end of your cable flip Pins 2 and 3.
Click to expand...

What about wiring male>female and female>male adaptors (to keep nice cables in tact)? Or should I get new/more cables?
 
I wouldn't blame the tech for not addressing this unless you told him/her you wanted this assessed and rectified as necessary. It is relatively common when working with older equipment to have to accommodate different conductor conventions.

Don't blame the tech and just deal with it. If you don't want to mess with your Mogami cables then open up the Otari. Pin1 will be the ground and will stay that way. Pin3 (if it is stock) will be the signal conductor. Pin2 will either be I terminated or tied to pin1. Reverse them. Test it out with one of your cables and if you can't connect something from your Steinberg interface to an input on the Otari, get a cable you can mess with and reverse pins 2 and 3 and then test again.

You may be able to use your adapters but it depends on whether or not you can open them up and swap wires.

Does that make sense?
 
sweetbeats said:
I wouldn't blame the tech for not addressing this unless you told him/her you wanted this assessed and rectified as necessary. It is relatively common when working with older equipment to have to accommodate different conductor conventions.

Don't blame the tech and just deal with it. If you don't want to mess with your Mogami cables then open up the Otari. Pin1 will be the ground and will stay that way. Pin3 (if it is stock) will be the signal conductor. Pin2 will either be I terminated or tied to pin1. Reverse them. Test it out with one of your cables and if you can't connect something from your Steinberg interface to an input on the Otari, get a cable you can mess with and reverse pins 2 and 3 and then test again.

You may be able to use your adapters but it depends on whether or not you can open them up and swap wires.

Does that make sense?
Click to expand...


Sweetbeats,

Thanks!

The tech was fully aware of the interface and mixer connections and while I do think that he should've addressed the issue, I will take your advice and just deal and not blame (aka lean away from negativity : )

I think that I understand. Are there any pro's and con's with doing this inside of the machine vs. to cables connectors or adaptors?

Correct me if I'm wrong: The i/o on the Otari's connections will remain unbalanced but the polarity/pins will match with balanced connectors? Why would an unbalanced XLR exist in the first place?

Lastly, and just out of curiosity, what is the effect of 2pin hot going into a 3pin hot?

Thanks again.
 
Otari used xlr's because there was a balancing kit available iirc.

Like I said earlier, if pins 2 and 3 are criss-crossed no audio will pass.
 
You could make short adapter cables so you dont have to modify the Otari or your Mogami cables. I deal with this company Professional Audio Cables they could probably make you adapter cables to your specs.

VP

PS Dont be bummed because your machine is not balanced. Unbalanced actually is superior IF your studio is small and permanent. The balancing curcuits used colors the sound somewhat. Balanced is necessary with long cable runs in large commercial studios where there is a lot of EMI/RFI interference. I was always discouraged that most of my Tascam fleet is unbalanced until I read that unbalanced is really the "Purist" way to go. Ground loops still have to be managed though even in a balanced system.
 
The pin 2 and pin 3 reversal doesn't cancel out all signal does it? If you're shooting a balanced signal via XLR into the Otari, only pin 3 will get that signal so it will end up being unbalanced, but you'll still get signal, if my memory serves me correctly.

Then as for the outputs from the Otari, that signal is also unbalanced XLR, so you'll just have to be sure the thing it's going into something that can accept an unbalanced signal. If it's expecting a balanced signal, you'll get nothing as the input transformer will be expecting a push-and-pull signal but be getting only push and no pull.

I could be wrong though.
 
It depends on how the Steinberg interface is balanced, and it also depends on whether or not pin2 is I terminated in the Otari, or strapped to pin1. My recollection (and best practice) is that pin2 is strapped to pin1. Depending on the balancing circuitry in the Steinberg unit you'll either have signal to the inputs of the Otari or you won't, and if pin2 is strapped to pin1 in the Otari and therefore is unbalanced the Steinberg unit will be expecting signal on the tip of the TRS connector but it will be coming on the ring strapped to the shield. See? As soon as you plug a "standard" xlr to trs cable or adapter into the Otari and then terminate it at the other end into the interface it shunts the signal to ground because (iirc) pin2 is strapped to pin1. On an unbalanced 3-conductor situation you do want to strap the unused signal conductor to ground at the output jack of the device lest the cable become an antenna. If it was me I'd open up the Otari just to see what is going on and then get some phase reverse adapters or make some so I could still use my mogami cabling. Actually, if it was me I'd be swapping pins 2 and 3 in my mogami cabling...if I had mogami cabling...i just have "sweetbeats cabling" so I'm totally uninhibited about messing with it.
 
Victory Pete said:
PS Dont be bummed because your machine is not balanced. Unbalanced actually is superior IF your studio is small and permanent. The balancing curcuits used colors the sound somewhat. Balanced is necessary with long cable runs in large commercial studios where there is a lot of EMI/RFI interference. I was always discouraged that most of my Tascam fleet is unbalanced until I read that unbalanced is really the "Purist" way to go. Ground loops still have to be managed though even in a balanced system.
Click to expand...

makes sense. balanced is coming and going, unbalanced is straight ahead = "pure"
 
sweetbeats said:
It depends on how the Steinberg interface is balanced, and it also depends on whether or not pin2 is I terminated in the Otari, or strapped to pin1. My recollection (and best practice) is that pin2 is strapped to pin1. Depending on the balancing circuitry in the Steinberg unit you'll either have signal to the inputs of the Otari or you won't, and if pin2 is strapped to pin1 in the Otari and therefore is unbalanced the Steinberg unit will be expecting signal on the tip of the TRS connector but it will be coming on the ring strapped to the shield. See? As soon as you plug a "standard" xlr to trs cable or adapter into the Otari and then terminate it at the other end into the interface it shunts the signal to ground because (iirc) pin2 is strapped to pin1. On an unbalanced 3-conductor situation you do want to strap the unused signal conductor to ground at the output jack of the device lest the cable become an antenna. If it was me I'd open up the Otari just to see what is going on and then get some phase reverse adapters or make some so I could still use my mogami cabling. Actually, if it was me I'd be swapping pins 2 and 3 in my mogami cabling...if I had mogami cabling...i just have "sweetbeats cabling" so I'm totally uninhibited about messing with it.
Click to expand...

Thanks again. I will get some adaptors or short patch cables. Or, I could do nothing, forgo the eq and just go in and out of the unbalanced inserts on the yamaha m916 mixer. I don't plan to be this lazy, but it is the path of least resistance and the eq's are not magical or anything of the sort. But I'll still get the adaptors because I don't plan to pass all of my audio (or even a majority of it) through that mixer. Just an option that I realized.
 
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