Only Serious Recorders Please. Difficult and Long Question!!!

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pisces7378

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OK... I went into a music store here in Munich and threw down a chunk of change that I have been saving for 9 months. I asked and asked and asked everyon that I could find and racked up over 100 posts here in my research of “What to buy”. And here is what I bought.....

E-magic Audio Logic Platinum 4.6 ($550)
Midisport 2x2 Midi-Interface ($75)
Evolution MK-149 Midi-Keyboard Controller ($125)
Roland JV-1010 Sound Module-Synthesizer ($450)
BayerDynamics High End-Pro-Headphones ($150)
Total ($1,350)
All these figures are based on the current Deutsch Mark / US Dollar exchange rate.

Now just a month ago I went in and plunked down some big dollars on a new PC.

Siemens/Fujitsu
Pent III 933MHz
128 MB RAM (will get more as I move into audio)
40 GB Hard Drive (will get a seperate 7200rpm for audio)
8x8x32 Samsung CD-RW Burner
16-bit on board sound.
17” Monitor ($1,650)
Total Spent So Far ($3,000)

Now I am drowning in the technology of it all, seeing as my last recording purchase was a Fostex 4-track when I was 18 years old, and I never REALLY learned that thing properly. Now I am not about to dive into asking specific questions about this software. I just got into the manual, and I bought a book called “Making music with Logic Audio” from a company in Great Britain... it isn’t available on Amazon.com. Anyway, it is supposed to make it easier but it is in Greek too. Well, anyway... my question is this...

I have always planned on buying a 24-bit 96Khz sound card... Preferably the Delta-66 with the Delta Omni I/O Break.out box for the pre-amps, Ins and Outs, FXs sends and returns, blah blah blah... well now I am trying to back out of that mentality and see things from a less, “everything in one system” type of deal.

See I have a “friend” from Argentina here in Munich and he has a Roland VS 1880 Hard Disc 16-Track Multi Tracker. He swares by it, and it was very hard for me to break away from his constant gnawing about how the Roland VS 1880 or the Yamaha AW is the best thing under the sun, and that PC recording is a joke for audio. I know that he is right if you are in a band and need to do on the spot recording sessions in practice spaces etc... And many other factors support his idea. However, I live in Munich Germany, with no band, and I am trying to be a one man band here. I would have had to have bought a hardware sequencer, drum machine, and still would have probably sucked... not to mention being poor as hell.

Now I am trying to decide weather or not a multi-tracker would be better than a high end sound card. The Delta-66 costs about ($400) and the Omni I/O break out box ($250) for a total of $650. Now the new KORG D-12 Digital Muslti-tracker costs around ($899) on Musiciansfriend.com and even less here in Germany.

My question is..........

How would someone go about using Logic Audio Platinum to sequence all the MIDI sounds from a Roland JV 1010 (bass guitar tracks, and drum tracks) and then be able to record the guitar tracks, and vocals on the KORG D-12 and then get them onto a CD together?

Now the KORG does not have a CD burner... well it can, but I am not going to buy one when my computer has one already. And how could I possibly hear what the Logic Audio sequencer is playing back while I record the guitar tracks? And then how can I import/export the sounds into the computer to go to burn a CD?

Do I have to have the damn sound card anyway to record from the Multitracker into the computer? Using this synerio, what can you guys come up with?

The reason I think this is... the Logic Audio Platinum has a lot of beautifully wonderful plug in effects. I am not sure weather I must turn the MIDI files into wave files in order to be able to use the effect plug ins... If I do have to combine the midi files into .wav files to use the plug ins... then how do I get them from the computer as wave files to the multitracker so that I can hear them on playback as I record... then record the guitar parts and voals in the multitracker... and THEN send the whole thing back over to the computer so that I can add effects to the guitar tracks, mix it all down, and then burn the CD?

Best Luck and we will see who has the most ass on them to answer this question,

Mike
 
Mike, well, umm..............................

Jeepers! Let me get this straight, you just spent
$3000 on a DAW, and now you are thinking about
a standalone?? Why do you want to do that??
Unless it is just too hard to learn, that is not
the way to go. If you can learn German, you can
learn Computer Recording.

Sure, you can Use a Korg and the computer just for
midi, it is easy to sync them, but you could get the
same results with a 486 and a free-ware midi
sequencer. To use the Logic just for midi is like
buying a Masterlink for $1300 and using it to make
Coasters.

Yes, to use your computer for audio, you need a
good soundcard, no matter if you have a multitracker
or not, so the financial issue doesnt matter, you gotta
buy the soundcard either way, unless you just use
the computer for midi, which would make you the
owner of the worlds most expensive midi sequencer!

If you are overwhelmed by the technology, maybe download a demo of a really basic audio sequencer,
and learn the ropes a bit before tackling Logic, which
is obviously a bit harder than you thought.

Give it some time, but forget about even looking at
a multitracker, you are very close to having a dream
DAW, a soundcard and hard drive and you have an
awesome rig.
 
for sure...forget the table top unit. Give yourself some time with the learning curve. Logic isn't a "jump up and easy to use program" as compared to Cooledit, for instance. A year from now, you'll see that your rewards will be much greater than if you just take the easy way out with a "all in one unit." To answer your specific questions, I think most were answered in the previous post...except yes..your midi file will need transformation to .wav for the plugins. As you learn your equipment, you'll see that you'll answer all of your own questions. Sorry...no immediate help, but you will understand....trust me. STICK WITH THE PC!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Thanks A Million Recoreding Geniuses

Thanks a millions for such lenghthy and thurough answers. That is exactly what i was looking for... real answers. I didn't recieve one single...YOU IDIOT!!! response (yet). That is always "music to ones ears" (ewww did I just say that?). Anyway, I was/am not trying to "jump ship". I am not imature and impatient enough to fiddle around with a piece of software for a few dayxs and then say... Fück it, give me a multi-tracker. I was at work when I typed that message and that guys from Argentina had just filled my ear up with how, Midi on a PC is easy as hell, and Audio on a stand alone mulit-tracker is easy as hell, but when you try to combine the two in a PC... you are an idiot. Now he has never actually used a PC for anything, and is a self proclaimed stand alone addict. So I am aware that he is about as a reliable source as Martha Stewert is on underground hip-hop. But I just know that when I get back to the states, I will want to sit around in the living room of my friends appartment with acoustic guitars, and play around drinking beers, and recording half completed songs on a recorder so that we will rmemeber "that cool riff" in the morning" and maybe use it as a good song writting tool. But then again i guess a Tascam 424 MKII 4-track would be the thing for that kind of "songwriting" tool.

I just simply know that a stand alone, usually has much better Ins and Outs than ANY sound card break out box.... even though the OMNI I/O break out box is a PC recorders dream come true when working with the Delta- line of high end sound cards. So I thought that MAYBE I would be able to kill two birds with one stone, by buying a multi-tracker and using it to both record with the computer... AND have my "saturday night get together" recorder. After all I don't think a computer would like me carting it over to my friends house every saturday night and setting an ash tray on the tower. But I guess a multi-tracker would be dumb.

But could someone please calm my fears about problems with PC's. I have heard on this website that a PC for recording is like using a pocket calculator to calculate rates of decent and velocity impact of a nuclear missle. EVERYONE fills me up with APPLE and MAC are the only choice. And if I had the money I probably would have gone that way. But I didn't and it is more than too late anyway, and so I do not want to feel "stuck" with a PC. I love PC's and have actually ONLY worked on them. Never touched a Mac. I have heard that they are better for art/design/music etc... than a PC. But WHY? I will go make a real post about this topic (for the millionth time I am sure). Ok forget the Mac question.

IS IT REALLY AND HONESTLY THAT DIFFICULT to simply get two or three guitar tracks, and maybe two vocal tracks down and mixed with a half dozen midi-tracks, already recorded and mixed into audio?

Will I 100% have to buy a new hard drive for the audio?

Will I 100% have to upgrade to 256 MB RAM?

And can my Pent III 933MHz PC handle all this?

I am not trying to record a symphany orchestra with 32 Mic-inputs on 32 seperate tracks. I am not trying to even record a live drummer. I simply want to use the MIDI devices to generate "as realiytic as possible" drum sounds, overlay bass guitar sounds also in MIDI, and then record my guitar part(s) and TRY to sing over them using a Audio Technica 4033a Large Dyaphram Condensor Mic. And my knowledge of computers is limited... no NON-existant. Just limited.

Thanks again for listening,
Mike

P.S. If you want to answer the MAC vs. PC question
please go do it in the other post that I am about to
go post. But if you have the time, answer the
other questions here. Really, thanks a million
guys. Oh and c7sus... thanks, and sorry about the
misunderstanding a month or so ago.
 
I started with the same goal...

"Just add some reasonable drums and bass to my guitar playing and singing."

I have a similar system (PC) and it works fine. The biggest challenge I have had is building the knowledge of recording it take for a good result.

When doing the one man band thing, you have to wear lot of hats. The reason things like performing, tracking, mixing, and mastering are typically done my individuals is because there is a lot of in depth knowledge required to do each task well.

Its two years after I was in your shoes, and I'm not there yet, but I can definitely see the improvement from when I started.

With a sound card, mic, and preamp, your setup will be complete (more or less) and will be superior to a stand alone, except for the physical control surface. Even this will be available for logic sometime this year.

Rather than the D I/O, I would recommend a voice channel unit, like (but not necessarily) the DBX 386.

if you want to answer your bud's "stand alone's are better" criticisms, ask him how he likes editing on a index card sized LCD.

"Do I need to upgrade to 256 Mb RAM?" No, but its not a bad idea.

"Do I need to add a hard drive for audio?" No, but its not a bad idea.

The one thing that a lot of mac users don't mention when they say "Macs are better for music" is the better systems usually have $30,000 (or more) of outboard equipment attached.

Good luck, but don't forget this stuff take time to learn.
 
You might look at an Alesis AI-3 A/D converter and a RME Hammerfall sound card - 1.5ms latency and all the I/Os you could want after they're converted to ADAT.
If you want to learn Logic much faster, spend $80 more sollars and get the animated CD tutorial by www.coolbreezesys.com
Don't look at a standalone system as either or,but somthing you can add later, it can provide direct portable recording that can later be processed with Emagic. I run my Fostex D824 (8track 24/96K) into Emagic through ADAT and two Pulsar cards. As far as PC recording sounding better than the HDR - no way. The D824 is the most life-like recorder I've ever heard. But for processing and CD burning, I still need the PC. Also, adding the Midi sequencing is straight forward in Logic.
If you get the CD, you will begin to see immediately all the editing and processing that is possible using Emagic. Also, the manuel will start making more sense because you get an overview of how things work.
Also, a second HD is cheap and you just plug it into your existing cable. When audio is quickly laid down on a HD, it doesn't have time to skip over other files. That is why a second HD is used exclusivly for recording.
Chuck
 
YOU IDIOT!!

im playin.

Keep the computer.. its better.

My only question is this... do you have a MIXER??

If not, do you plan on getting one?

if so... may I recommend a digital mixer and a soundcard with a multi digital in..? It has worked like a charm for me and mine (tascam/soundscape)... and I like the quality MUCH better than I did with my mackie/midiman setup before.

xoxo
 
Boy look at the views

Man they just get getting more and more and more... I might be going for a new homerec.com record for most viewed/least answered post. But I appreciate the ones that do answer, you guys rock.

Mike
 
Camn

Yes I haev a mixer... that is, the Omni I/O is a mixer. If you haven't become very familiar with it then I highly suggest you at least read up on it. It can be seen on the M-audio website. It is really "all the rave" over here in Europe. Future Music Magazine out of great britain just reviewed it this month and they said that the pre-amps alone are worth the prive of the whole unit. It functions as a mixer, In's Outs, pre-amps, FX send and returns, phantom power, clip lights, trim knobs, the works!!! It is small and relatively in expensive. However I have not bought it YET. If you could tell me EXACTLY what model Tascam you have and what soundscape card you have. I am not familiar with Soundscape. ANd I am not really familiar with mixer boards period for home recording. Just let me know what you have, and after you take a look at the Omni I/O then you can tell me if you think I would be making a mistake in buying it.


Thanks a Million,
Mike
 
schwa got it right

Hey Mike!

I'll try to, but I don't know if I can take your PC fears off of you. My system is quite basic PC based and yes, form time to time it crashes. But man, it's a PC! PCs do that. Restart and go on working. In the two years that I#ve been working with Logic Audio it crashed I don't know how often, but I never had serious data losses or anything. Sure, it's really bad if you're mixing a song, you're five times through it and think that you're close to a final mix, and then CRASH! there it goes. But don't we all have to make breaks sometimes? ;)
BTW - the second edition of Windows is the best thing in this respect.

Oh, I nearly forgot your I/O problem. If you know that you will always be recording one track at a time, then have a look at Mindprint's EnVoice or anything alike.

Cheers, David
 
You might want to check the Aardvark 24/96 Direct Pro for about 499. This is a very well reviewed, very simple box that provides you with two high quality mic preamps, phantom power, soft knee compression, and a few other effects. You can monitor directly through it, which means that you can attach either headphones or powered speakers directly to the box. It includes a PCI card and a cabled breakout box.

Look up "aardvark directpro 24/96 reviews" on google and you'll see some nice reviews (sos.com has a very informative review)

The folks there are nice, its a small company and they answer their phones.

This will give you an easy way to get your audio in, 2 channels at a time. If you want more channels, upgrade to the DirectPro 1010, I think its called.

I don't work for them.

Eric
 
You Got The Right One, Baby...

That is an awesome set-up you have. So stick with it.
And from one Argentinian to another...
Tell your friend what he's got is but a starter-kit to your DAW.

So relax and enjoy!
DJ
 
The only mistake I think you made (and it's not really a mistake if you stay patient and focused on what you want to accomplish) is buying all this shit (pretty much) all at once. I built my studio one toy at a time and was cheapskate enough to avoid pouncing on something new until I learned how to work the stuff I already had. This technique also helped me better target the next piece of equipment because I learned how it would fit with the stuff I had better than I possibly could've done just flipping through magazines and reading spec sheets and reviews. Actually playing with stuff is where the rubber meets the road. The only thing I'd pick at would be that $1650 monitor. Flat, eh? You could've gotten a 21" Trinitron AND a nice sound card for that kind of bread. In monitors- Real Estate is where it's at. I don't think I would enjoy doing audio on a 17" screen. Sure- the CRT has more interference with electric guitars than the flat screen, but you shouldn't be tracking that close to your system anyway.
Bottom line: Take some time to learn and enjoy what you've got. It should do all you need to do once you get a soundcard.
 
Mike did you get a sound card?

I'm curious to see how this tale plays out.

I couple of comments on the Aark Direct pro:

First of all, its 4 in four out. Two of the I/O's can be SPDIF, but you lose two analog channels that way.

I own one, and I have mixed feelings about it.
Pros:
Is a lot like the Delta 66/Omni I/O, but has 4 pres, and integrated effects and eq.
The control panel is alot like a software implementation of a small mixer (feature wise like the bheringer 602).
Comes with Cakewalk, which would be a significant value if you didn't already have Logic.
Less expensive than the delta solution.

Cons:
The effects are not that great.
No insert means you can't add your own effects "on the way in".

In the end, I ended up buying a mixer and a pre, and a compressor, so I am not using many of the features I bought the Direct Pro for. I am currently using it in a mode that the Delta 66 would fill just fine.

I have to agree with DRstawl, its a good idea to take your time. Even once its all plugged in, your're going to be bewildered by the number of techniques that need to be mastered to get a good recording.

Regarding new equipment, I like to use the addage "If I don't know WHY I need it, then I don't need it."
 
Thanks

Man, I am loving all the response. And I thank you all. I am trying to wear a lot of hats these days in this project and this website has saved my life countless times. I think that I should go ahead and clear up some convusion however... I did not buy a flat screen monitor first off. It is a 21" normal "brand X" monitor. The price confusion might result from the fact that the ($1,650) was for the whole computer tower and the $250 monitor. Then the TOTAL that I hav spent on this WHOLE project is hanging around the $3,000. Probably more like $3,250 considering computer extras (speakers, adaptor/surge protector, etc... MIDI cabels, blah blah blah).
Now I was/am full aware of beginner burnout due to technological overload. However, in defence of my decissions I pretty much HAD to do it this way? I have the...
Roland JV 1010 Sound Module
MK-149 Evolution Keyboard
Midisport 2x2 Interface
Head Phones
and Logic Audio Plat. 4.6
and an alright computer. (once I get 256 MB RAM and a dedicated HDD).

Now what good are any of these things without the other? I thought I went out and bought a very basic set-up. No real bells and whistles... except for the obviously "too pro for me" software. but I knew it would be this way. I just wish that there was some way for me to learn this program better. I am still trying to get a damn metronome click out of my Environment "Synths" layer.

The book says that the metronome isn't so good at keeping time so it would be better if I rerouted it through the MIDI device (Rol JV 1010)... I created a "MIDI Metronome Object" then "cabled it in" from the Multi Instrument object. Then pushed PROGRAM>CHANNEL 10 on my MK-149 to set it to midi channel 10 just like it said in the book. Then I clicked on the Metronome button and clicked play nothing happened. It started playing but I heard nothing. When I go to the Notation page I see the notes apear and I can hear the notes through my headphone, but I hear no metronome, thus I never know if I am on beat, or in teh right measure etc.... the musical notes are always "in the wrong place" with regard to measure bar markers. Only because I have no rhythmical frame of reference to follow as I play.

If I could just get that bug then I could move on with learning... but it is killing me.


Anyway, thanks for all the help so far.

DOES ANYONE know of a homerecording website where I could get some REAL TIME chat like ICQ or Yahoo Chat options, so that I can ask questions and answer them (maybe) in real time? I need at least one guy to talk to since I have no home rec buddies over here in Germany. I am just pulling my hair out being so alone.

Are you guys all alone in your recordings? or do you AT LEAST have a friend or two to discuss this stuff with?

Thanks for the replies,
mike
 
In the words of our ex-president...

I feel your pain. On Sunday, my girlfreind walked in to see me wrestling with a problem, and says how she would have thrown the whole thing out the window a long time ago. I fixed the issue 5 minutes after she said that.

I don't use logic, and don't live in Germany so i can't help you with your specific problem. However...

Isn't emagic a Teutonic organization? perhaps they have local user groups or something to that effect.

I use cakewalk, and find their forums a great resource for product specific information. Regarding recording freinds, I'm the only one I know personally that suffers from this malady.

Still, thought the news groups and forums like this, I can ususally find the answers I need pretty quickly.
 
Hey >Pisces7378< I totally relate to your thing about learning this DAW thingee and I agree totally with the fact that the people here are awesome for info as this is my first time here and I been here for like 3 hours so far. I too just plunked down some major $$$ for a computer just for recording. I couldn't deal with my ol' Dell Pentium Pro 180mhz, 96meg RAM when it came to editing . For what it is , it kicks ass, but I needed more 'cause I'm lookin' to get a bit more serious. I only wish I found this site sooner. I thought a Soundblaster Platinum Live! 5.1 was the way to go and now I found out it's my Live! Value with a cute front box and tons of software I'll never use. I got the 1ghz, ATA100, 7200 rpm, 256 meg, blah,blah, blah and now I'm freaked out too. Actually, I don't even have it yet as it's just being built. I got it without a sound card and burner because I thought I new what I needed. What I'm sayin' here is it's all a learning experience and there are lots of sites out there, though this is by far the best site for real advice I have come across. Most software and hardware vendor sites have how-to areas and info you can learn from whether you use there stuff or not. I'm used to Cakewalk products so for now that's what I'll use. The www.cakewalk.com site has tons of info. The www.steinberg.net site has lots of info too. Like all of us, we will grow out of and into many different things as our skills develop. I gotta go now because I need to find me one of them Delta44 sound cards that Slackmaster 2000 and the rest are talkin' about before my system gets shipped. The best of it all to you. Be patient, as hard as that is at times. Great luck.
 
Guess I'll throw my 2pfennig in. I did just what you did last May: I had given up on my Porta-Two 4Xcassette deck and was going to spend my autumn years drinking gin and being obnoxious, when I got interested in digital recording. So after a GREAT DEAL of thought (I actually spent a couple of years thinking about it) I got a 20GB 128 MHz computer with a Lexicon Core 2 and Cool Edit Pro software. I already had an Alesis mixer and some good mics.
Why did I buy a computer, being after all someone with non-existent computer skills? Because I have littered my lengthy past with the next best thing: starting from a Sony reel-to-reel, to a Fostex 8 trk (1/4" tape, remember those?), to a Tascam 8 track (moved all the way up to 1/2" tape!) to the Porta-Two.
A computer is upgradeable. It's your basic '49 Ford flathead where you can add anything and everything from rhinestone mudflaps to Ardun OHV heads....
The other reason was that, loooking around me at the people who called themselves computer whizzes, I modestly concluded that if they could run one, so could I. And it turned out to be true. Yes, the learning curve is steep and slippery; I often find myself in a heap at the bottom of the curve trying to remember what I did the last time I found myself there for the very same reason!
So put in your time. I am now doing multitracks of songs, burning to CD, converting to mp3, making CDs from old out-of-print LPs, cleaning up old tapes and burning THEM onto CD -- I'm in hog heaven.
How did I learn it? The old "what-does-this-knob-do" attitude that got me into analog recording. And, of course, with computers everywhere these days, you might be surprised at how learning file management at the office helps in the studio.
Go for it, Mike.
John
 
Hey John Weigel

Great bit of advice, especially the part about "what does this do, and try it ??" I wish I had a portion of the $$ I've spent on tape I burnt or threw out. I also have only been doing this for awhile and it blows tape and the equipment that goes with it away. Each recording seems to get better. I can't even think about going to a studio and spending $$, when I could just buy more stuff for the ol 'puter.
Here's some advice that works for me to all of us newbies out there. Have fun, don't take yourself or the computer too serious. Try not to stress out, the computer it's self will give us reason to stress on it's own at times. I am not saying treat it like a goof. Just have fun and have some patience. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. Don't worry about the equipment that you don't have, work on learning what we have and getting the most out of it. Ask tons of questions, listen to everyone, use what works for you. Experiment, try crazy things. Trial and error will teach you loads. Hey it's not like we have to buy tape and worry about the cost of it and have to throw mistakes away or erase and record over and lose quality. Just hit undo and you are right back at it. You can record over and over on a rewritable CD without losing quality. Remember doing the "ping pong" thing with tape recorders and each time the song lost more punch and got muddier ?? Well no more of that for us. Surf around the net. Most recording software and hardware companies have tons of info at their sites whether you use their products or not. Here are a few that I find helpful. In the beginning, I found even reading through the glossaries to be a great help. Well here they are............

http://www.steinberg.net/infocenter/musicandcomputers/pages/vorwort.htm

http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Lessons/Lessons.html

http://school.syntrillium.com/welcome.html

Jam on and have a great time
 
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