One SM81 or two matched SD conensors?

  • Thread starter Thread starter pdadda
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pdadda

pdadda

Captain Sea Boots
What do you think would be a better purchase for acoustic guitar? My current mic collection consists of:
Behringer B1
2 SM57's
e609
Audix OM2

The cost is about the same to get one SM81 or 2 SP C4's.
 
It's hard to say. The SM81 is a great mic and one that you will not likely get rid of after you buy it. When you save up, you could get a second one for stereo and binaural recording.

However, if you do a lot of solo acoustic stuff, drums, or any classical recording, then having a matched pair of SDCs would probably serve you well. You could pick up a pair of C4s with omni caps for just under the cost of an SM81.

Either route is o.k. I would get the 81 and start saving for another one.
 
That's a tough call... depends on whether you want to do any stereo recording right away (2 x SP C4s) or not (1 x SM81). Even though I own (and love) a pair of SM81's, I'd probably recommend going with the C4's now so you can begin experimenting with stereo mic'ing...
 
buy the best you can afford.

you buy mediocre/crap stuff ...you buy twice. i'm not saying c4's are crap, but lets face it, in the end you'd probably want to replace them with something else anyways...
 
It's really going to depend on what type of music you're recording. I also love my pair of SM81s, but I use one SM81 either by itself or in conjunction with an LDC almost as often as I use the pair.

If acoustic guitar is the main focus of your recordings, and you're doing classical, fingerstyle, or anything like that, then I would say get a pair of SDCs.

If you're doing a rock thing or a folk thing or a pop thing that has a lot of acoustic guitar in it, I would say go for one SM81 and use it by itself or in conjunction with the B1 or an SM57.
 
Makes me think of this joke: Two guys are sitting at a bar. One says, "I'm here to find a perfect 10." Other guy says, "Hell, I'll settle for two 5's and a sixpack."

Seriously...
I'd say get the single SM81. Add another later if you need a stereo pair. I guess I'm assuming you're not needing to do live recording of groups, or recording from a bit of a distance in large rooms, which is what stereo pairs are really for.

Personally, I think that for most of us recording in a home with normal size rooms, a stereo pair isn't very useful. It's only useful if you're recording in a good sounding large, high ceiling room and you move the mic's back a few feet or more. So the mic's hear the music like a listener would, with the same L and R balance. That's technically what stereo mic'ing is. Recording from 5 ft back in a small room with an 8 ft ceiling is unlikely to get a sound you'll want.

If you're recording instruments up close (within a couple of feet), using two mic's isn't technically stereo, and it works as well or better if the mic's are different from one another.

So an SM81 used with other mic's you've already got could be just what you need.

Tim
 
More props for the SM81. I've got a deuce of them and it would take some really darn good mics at a good price to make me trade them. I use them for ensemble recording, acoustic guitar, and drum overheads and they do a fantastic job.
 
Timothy Lawler said:
Personally, I think that for most of us recording in a home with normal size rooms, a stereo pair isn't very useful. It's only useful if you're recording in a good sounding large, high ceiling room and you move the mic's back a few feet or more. So the mic's hear the music like a listener would, with the same L and R balance. That's technically what stereo mic'ing is. Recording from 5 ft back in a small room with an 8 ft ceiling is unlikely to get a sound you'll want.
Click to expand...

I disagree with this. I record at home in a normal size room, and I find my stereo pair extremely useful. Using one of my SM81s and my AT4033 in a XY configuration would certainly not be the same thing. For XY, NOS, ORTF, anything like that a pair of SDCs will sound a lot different (better) than an SDC and something else.

I understand what you're saying about the mics not technically picking up what a listener's ears would, but no one puts their ear down to a snare drum while a drummer is playing or puts their head inside a bass drum, etc...but we still record those things in that way because it sounds good. Just because the stereo mics are close to the sound source doesn't mean it isn't stereo micing.
 
i'd go with the buy it once theory
(meaning the 81)

it's a proven mic, that really means a lot (to me anyways)

i'm sure the c4 pair is fine "for the money"

you hear that a lot around here
 
Thanks for the feedback. I mostly record rock music, although I also record some of my own acoustic guitar/vocals stuff. It sounds like the SM81 might be better for me. With a mic like the 81, do you really need to worry about them being factory matched? Or would they be pretty darn close if I get another one down the line?
 
pdadda said:
Or would they be pretty darn close if I get another one down the line?
Click to expand...

That's the Shure party line. I have two random 81s that are close enough for me. Hmmm, maybe I'll test them to see how close they are tonight.
 
I also have a random pair of 81's and there's no audible difference to my ears. I'm sure if you broke out the super-anal test equipment you would find some differences, but really now....differences are part real sound. Your two ears don't hear things exactly the same way anyway...
 
I disagree with this. I record at home in a normal size room, and I find my stereo pair extremely useful.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I didn't put it well.

EleKtriKaz, I'd agree that matched mic's can sound good used up close on many sources with a coincident or near-coincident configuration. I've got 4 pairs of small diaphram condensers and use them a lot in small and large rooms, in "official" stereo configs and up close too.

So let me rephrase my sentence to... "I think that for most of us recording in a home with normal size rooms, a lower quality stereo pair isn't as useful as a better quality single mic, or a better mic used in tandem with a cheap mic." Kind of long, but that's what I meant. So if we still disagree, at least my argument doesn't sound so snooty.

Tim
 
So I also want to record drums. When I did my band's demo (http://www.weapons-of-mass-distraction.com/Media.htm), I just used 2 SM57's as OH's using the Recorderman method. This picked up snare well, but I didn't get as much Tom's or cymbals as I would have liked. So it would be nice to get the C4's for use as OH's as well. I don't know why I am buying anything, as I still owe around $600 on my guitar. Gotta love the music bug.
 
Just FYI I got around to testing my SM81s. They are definitely not from the same batch; one is SN 95xxx and the other is 86xxx. I also bought them both used, from different sellers, without knowing their history. Thus, I wouldn't conclude based upon these two mics that random SM81s aren't well matched, just that two random SM81s can be at least this well matched.

That said, I found their matching to be OK but not great. I used a test tone on a metronome, a very reedy sounding A=440Hz, so there was plenty of overtones. The mics were parallel, as close as I could get them without touching, with the speaker about 18 inches away.

I found the level on the mics was closely matched, at the limit my ability to measure on my meters, so I'd say +-1dB. Reversing phase on one mic yielded a difference of -27dB. The resulting combined signal was slightly less bright than the in-phase signal, but still fairly broadband across the midrange. I verified these results on different preamps and different channels on those preamps, and by swapping different identical cables.

My approach has several limitations; most significantly I wasn't testing response below 440Hz, and I had a very tiny sample :)
 
I would buy a pair of C4s or a pair of Oktava MC012s before I would buy a single SM81. You will get much more use from them--especially if you are recording drums. I have never heard the C4s, but I know the Oktavas have held their own in double blind tests with professional musicians and engineers (EQ Mag, for one) against better mics than the SM81. I have heard both the SM81 and the MC012 on acoustic guit, and one is not better than the other.

And let's not forget that the instrument and mic positioning will have a much greater affect on the sound than the difference between an SM81 and a MC012 or a C4 (which also gives you omni).

Also, perfect matching in not important IMO, unless you are recording a source that needs perfectly matched pairs (an orchestra). A guitar or dumset don't require perfectly matched mics. Some professional engineers will mic a solo acoustic with four or even more mics at times--what ever the piece needs.

I can also tell you that stereo micing an acoustic guit solo or for sparse mixes almost always kicks the shit out of a single mic--no contest.

But WTF do I know. I'm just a songwriter with an opinion. :D
 
you have to be putting your signal through a clean pre, too.... don't forget your sound is only as good as the shittiest piece you've got. I've got the c4s, LOVE UM. but i've never used an 81... I go through a presonus mp20 with the mod, just stepped up from (gasp!) a tiny behringer board... THAT made as much difference as I could imagine upgrading to a sm would've
 
Did a mic comparison experiment yesterday relating to the 2 cheapies vs 1 better mic question. Put up a 603 pair and a single Schoeps mk41 at the same position on a nylon string guitar doing fingerstyle solos. Set up the 603 pair in XY first, then also in closely spaced AB to use them on and off axis. Distances were 1 ft, 2 ft, and 4 ft out from a spot between bridge and soundhole, which is the best spot for this particular guitar. Good sounding room 35'x15' with 16' peaked ceiling. Used Mackie pre's on all, then also tried the 603 pair through my 2 channels of Great River to be more than fair to them.

Imperfections of the experiment: The quality difference between the 603 and the mk41 is more extreme than the mic's mentioned in the thread, though the idea is the same. The mk41 is a supercardioid so has a much tighter pattern than the 603, so to be more scientific I probably should have set it up a little further away than the 603 pair. The 603s have a high end bump, and the mk41 is flat, but the room's high freq qualities are very good and it was a mellow instrument, so there wasn't anything bad there for the 603s to pick up. Finally, I'm not impartial as I already had A/B'd them when I first got the Schoeps a couple of years ago. But I wanted to reassess.

Listening back: Close up, the mk41 sounded a lot better than the 603 pair, and the quality difference increased the further away I got. Focused, firm low end, very sweet highs from the mk41. Using a little Waves linear EQ on the files to test how they responded to changes, the 603 pair didn't take EQ very well. The mk41 files responded well to EQ no matter what the changes were. Everything stayed clear and sweet. The stereo soundstage qualities of the 603 pair at the 4 ft distance were nice but not nearly good enough to compensate for the sound quality difference. And if I added a subtle reverb to the mk41 with ReverbX or SIR, it widened the single mic nicely. Moreso if I duplicated the mono file and processed each side differently with EQ or offset it a little in time.

I've often heard that good mono beats bad stereo, and it was interesting to try the experiment.

Tim
 
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