On Which Ear Should I Hang My Hat?

[snellular5]

When it comes down to it it doesn't matter unless your doing it for tv and your tom rolls need to match which way they are going on TV. Say you have a left handed drummer that throws everything off if you are doing it by one particular way so its all to taste. I like to have my hat on the side where there isn't to much going on to give it more definition.
Matt

 

[dintymoore]

I like to make it sound like I'm sitting at my drums.

Typically I put the hi hat as far left as it can go and on the right side I'll put something like a shaker or light guitar that balances it. That way I've defined my canvas width and want to make it feel like a really wide movie screen. I try to get the kick to have as much low as it can and try to make the cymbals go into the stratosphere. The basic idea is to try to make the sound as big as I can.

 

[dobro]

Just for poops and grins during an otherwise boring lunch, I decided to test my commercial playlist to see what trends there might be regarding drum panning across the spectrum of rock and over it's history.

I loaded a playlist of about 400 random songs from the 60s to the 00s into Winamp and let it's shuffle playback function randomly select 25 representative songs. My only interaction was to ignore or bypass old '60s songs in mono or obviously mixed (or remastered) into faux stereo or over-simplified LCR stereo, as well as bypass obviously other-genre stuff such as big band jazz or hardcore blues or the like. The rest I left to the computer to randomly auto-select. This is not purely scientific by any means, but I think one can see that there's a fairly wide variety of music styles and times represented here.

What surprised even me was just how little drum panning at all is represented here. By far the majority of samples have everything in the rhythm section just panned center mono. Many of the rest have something custom going on (to more or less of a degree), with just a couple actually using a natural-ish stereo perspective of any type.

I'm not saying that this is my recommendation, by any means (when has anyone here known me to advocate copying commercial trends? ) Just an interesting sample of what is out there is all I'm offering up, that all.

Here's the list and short descriptions of the drum panning schemes used:

Rick Holmstrom - I'm Gone: Center mono
Primal Scream - Rocks: Cemter mono
Jake Shimabukuro - Grandma's Groove: Center mono
David Mead - World of a King: Snare (intro): Hard right / Snare (verse 1): Center / Toms (body): hard L/R delay / Everything (end of song): Center mono
Taj Mahal & Ry Cooder - Dust My Broom: Center mono
Tommy James & The Shondells - Draggin' the Line: Center mono
Southside Johnny - I Don't Wanna Go Home: Center mono
Clash - Pressure Drop: Snare & hat: center mono / Toms stereo left but reversed
Buddy Guy & Paul Rogers - Some Kind of Wownderful: Center mono
Jethro Tull - Bouree: Center mono/slight (~5°) spread on cymbals?
Sarah McLaghlan - Dear God: Center/mono
Smithereens - In A Lonely Place: Center/mono
The Staple Singers - I'll Take You There: Center/mono
Warren Zevon - the Envoy: Center/mono
Joe Jackson - the Harder They Come: Snare & hat & rack tom:drummer perspective / floor tom: full left
U2 & BB King - When Love Comes To Town: Audience distant perspective
Dobie Gray - Drift Away: Snare: center on verses, hard L/R stereo delay on choruses / Hat: audience slight right / Toms: dynamic panning
Marshal Tucker Band - Can't You See: Center mono
Love and Rockets - I'm So Alive: Center mono
INXS - Devil Inside: W-I-D-E audience perspective w/automated effects
J. Geiles Band - Whammer Jammer: Center mono w/occasional narrow tom spread
Sly and the Family Stone - Everyday People: Full right mono
Buckwheat Zydeco - Buck's Hot Rod: Center mono
Rickie Lee Jones - Dannys All-Star Joint: Center Mono
John Hiatt - Memphis In The Meantime: Snare/hat/rack: Center mono / Floor tom: Hard left

G.

Very, very cool experiment. Up until now, I've been panning drum overheads left and right cuz I like the sound. It's a variation on this other thing I've done a lot - pan the two mics on the same acoustic guitar left and right. It ain't natural, but I like it for what seems to me like a fuller sound. I'm going to try the mono thing though (or maybe a very, very narrow pan on the drum overheads) to see what a more natural soundstage comes across as.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Very, very cool experiment. Up until now, I've been panning drum overheads left and right cuz I like the sound. It's a variation on this other thing I've done a lot - pan the two mics on the same acoustic guitar left and right. It ain't natural, but I like it for what seems to me like a fuller sound. I'm going to try the mono thing though (or maybe a very, very narrow pan on the drum overheads) to see what a more natural soundstage comes across as.

It seems to me that - like with just about everything else in mixing music, that a lot depends upon what else is going on in the mix.

Take just for one example, "Can't You See" by Marshall Tucker. The drums in that song are not only mono centered, but are surprisingly subdued and back in the mix. Now here's a song that I have listened to a LOT over the years since it's been recorded, and never as a recreational listener noticed (nor would have guessed) just how unremarkable the drums are in this mix. I think that a big part of it is that they just are not that important to that mix, as it's really a mix that's anchored by the rhythm guitars and the wood block (which manages to come through by virtue of it's higher timbre) more than anything else. But I also think that it's in equal part due to the nice, full use of the rest of the soundstage with a slow build of instruments (flute, lead guitar, piano, organ) each with it's own "pan space" in the soundstage.

To reinforce that idea, check out "Rocks" by Primal Scream. Now there the drums are completely center mono panned, but yet are way up front and an integral part of the sound of the song with a track that sounds like it was ripped off from Bachman Turner Overdrive rolleyes. But while the center panning is a bit more obvious because of the increased relative amplitude, one really doesn't mind it because there is *a lot* going on in the rest of the pan space, from the hard-panned guitars on each side, to the keys, background vocals and horn section filling in everything in between the gits and the drums.

Now, I'm sure the drummers in the audience are probably itching to disagree on the "noticability" of center mono drums and the lack of interest in such a scheme. This is understandable, of course. And also with some of the heavier metals, which are not represented in my playlist, the "rules" (so to speak) will change a bit. Again, I'm just illustrating and discussing one particular test here, not laying down any global gospel of any type.

And, dobro, one thing you might want to play with when trying narrower stereo panning of the drums of just a couple of tens of degrees or so; there's nothing sthat says they need to be stereo panned around the center. While that often works great, it can be interesting sometimes to have a, say, 25° stereo drum kit spread, but have it just left (or right) of center. Especially if you have something to balance it on the mirror side, like secondary percussion (bongo, djimbo, marimba, shakers, etc.) or a superior bass line from the next Jaco Pastorius, or something like that, but also useful if you're trying for a quasi-realistic image of a live soundstage recording. Just an idea to play with, that's all. Whatever works, works .

G.

 

[RAMI]

Now, I'm sure the drummers in the audience are probably itching to disagree on the "noticability" of center mono drums and the lack of interest in such a scheme.

Not this drummer. I don't agree or disagree. What I have to do is go back and listen to a lot of stuff that I've listened to as a recreational listener. Stuff I've grown up with and never really "noticed" anything about the mix since I just loved the music so much that I never really anallized it.

 

[miroslav]

Take just for one example, "Can't You See" by Marshall Tucker. The drums in that song are not only mono centered, but are surprisingly subdued and back in the mix. Now here's a song that I have listened to a LOT over the years since it's been recorded, and never as a recreational listener noticed (nor would have guessed) just how unremarkable the drums are in this mix. I think that a big part of it is that they just are not that important to that mix, as it's really a mix that's anchored by the rhythm guitars and the wood block (which manages to come through by virtue of it's higher timbre) more than anything else. But I also think that it's in equal part due to the nice, full use of the rest of the soundstage with a slow build of instruments (flute, lead guitar, piano, organ) each with it's own "pan space" in the soundstage.

Right.

While I do feel that drums are always important...and maybe even the most important element in Rock/Pop music or as equally important as the electric guitar for defining Rock/Pop music...
..."important" doesn't IMO mean they are always "center stage" and up-front in a mix.
For some music, having the drums really in-your-face just works great and that could be the main anchor of the song...but for other things the anchor may be something else or a combination of things...and that's not necessarily talking about the rhythmic anchor, though at times, a guitar or keyboard can also provide that too in conjunction with the drums.

For me...drums are more about being the rhythmic "glue"...and they can be rather "subdued" while still providing the meat of the rhythm...or they can also be THE main focus of the rhythm.

If you do a lot of up-temp, driven kind of music, the tendency will be to have the drums really pop and occupy center stage...but IMO there can be "harder" Rock music without the drums necessarily POPPING throughout everything.
It seems to me that the real forward-mixed drums are a more current/modern style and just your flavor of the times, but not so much an absolute for Rock/Pop music.
I think that mentality goes somewhat hand-in-hand with the current trends of over-compression and attempts at LOUD mixes, but like over-compressed music, I find that continuously loud, in-your-face drums from song to song to be fatiguing on the ears.

YMMV….

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Not this drummer. I don't agree or disagree. What I have to do is go back and listen to a lot of stuff that I've listened to as a recreational listener. Stuff I've grown up with and never really "noticed" anything about the mix since I just loved the music so much that I never really anallized it.

Exactly. Most of those songs I listed I've listened to literally hundreds of times over the years, but almost always as a recreational listener and not with much of an analytical ear for the drums. If you had told me 5 minutes before I sat down to run that experiment that 2 out of 3 of the songs that would come up had the whole rhythm section center panned mono, I would have probably told you to take the needle out of your arm

G.

 

[dobro]

Yeah, and if the issue of panned hats was very significant, you'd have noticed instances of people doing it badly in your recreational listening before now. So the fact that you *haven't* noticed it suggests that it's not a very big issue.

By contrast, when the Beatles panned their drumkit hard right, you noticed it. How could you not? That's a biggie.

 

[Joza]

To reinforce that idea, check out "Rocks" by Primal Scream. Now there the drums are completely center mono panned, but yet are way up front and an integral part of the sound of the song with a track that sounds like it was ripped off from Bachman Turner Overdrive rolleyes. But while the center panning is a bit more obvious because of the increased relative amplitude, one really doesn't mind it because there is *a lot* going on in the rest of the pan space, from the hard-panned guitars on each side, to the keys, background vocals and horn section filling in everything in between the gits and the drums.

I listened to a couple of versions in youtube and they were not completely mono.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZpUcp-wgKM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1mokhAExmM

My system isnt panned exactly at center, but I think that hihat is about on center in the first one (or very slightly left) and on the right in the later one. Cymbals are not on center on the later one and also toms are panned slightly.

In the music video version (the latter) for example at 0:50 you can hear very hard panned tom strike at the end of the pattern.

Were you talking about a different mix? I guess these are quite narrow but I wouldnt call them mono. And absolutely no offence, just making sure I have no misconceptions.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I listened to a couple of versions in youtube and they were not completely mono.

I'm going according to the mix as released on the original 1994 CD. You can't trust youTube for this kind of stuff; first off, you never know how they might re-record, re-mix or re-master the initial studio recording for video; second, you also don't know how the mix may be compressed for streaming.

Besides, recorded music is meant to be listened to, not watched .

This does bring up a good point, though; that when comparing recordings like this, it only counts when comparing apples with apples. Often times there are multiple re-mix and/or re-master versions available, even on the same medium. I have three different CD versions of "Peter Punkinhead" by XTC, just for example, each rather differently mastered.

And for those who use pirated MP3s, fuggedaboudit; you never know who has done what with the rip before they put it online in a cheap form of user "re-mastering".

G.

 

[Joza]

Ok. I don't really own CD's that much at all so youtube is about the only way to check a song somebody is talking about. But thanks for a reminder that those may be very different than the original ones.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Ok. I don't really own CD's that much at all so youtube is about the only way to check a song somebody is talking about. But thanks for a reminder that those may be very different than the original ones.

That's understandable Joza. We can't expect everybody to own every recording ever made .

Just for the record (awful pun intended ) I looked up Primal Scream's discography, and there appears to be probably at least *six or seven* different releases of that song from four different labels/publishers; the original 1994 album on the Creation label (produced by Tom Dowd) - the one I'm referencing, a 1994 singles release,a 1997 remix album also from the Creation label, a 1992 VHS video release from Vision Video, a greatest hits album from 2003 on the Sony label, a 2003 live album from Sony, and a 2007 live DVD from Liberation Video.

That's a whole lot of remixing and especially remastering, not to mention three or four different actual performances over at least a twelve year period, so it wouldn't not be surprising at all to hear different things on the many different versions. That doesn't make this any easier on us, unfortunately .

G.