On Preamps and Microphones

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LeeRosario

LeeRosario

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I was doing some research online and I stumbled across the listening sessions website. I remember hearing about this a while ago, but didn't see this till now.

Anywho, I came across two graphs they had there and I figured it may help a few people on the forum visualize the sounds of some the more commonly used microphones and pres in the field. Another set of pictures to look at. Pretty cool stuff.

Microphone Graph

Preamp Graph

http://www.thelisteningsessions.com/home.htm
 
LeeRosario said:
Anywho, I came across two graphs they had there and I figured it may help a few people on the forum visualize the sounds of some the more commonly used microphones and pres in the field.


Just because someone slaps what is otherwise common knowlege in to a graph ... that somehow makes it more helpful? :D :D

I have no problem with the info itself. But the idea of it is just pretty goofy, and the guy who put it together is basically a self-promoting crack pot who I trust with matters of audio about as much as I would trust Enron executives to do my tax returns. Anyone could go on the web and get that same info. If you need it in the form of a graph in order to make better sense of it, then I'm afraid you may have some serious miscommunication between the left and right halves of your brain; issues which will will undoubtedly hinder you in any audio endeavors you may wish to undertake.
 
chessrock said:
Just because someone slaps what is otherwise common knowlege in to a graph ... that somehow makes it more helpful? :D :D

I have no problem with the info itself. But the idea of it is just pretty goofy, and the guy who put it together is basically a self-promoting crack pot who I trust with matters of audio about as much as I would trust Enron executives to do my tax returns. Anyone could go on the web and get that same info. If you need it in the form of a graph in order to make better sense of it, then I'm afraid you may have some serious miscommunication between the left and right halves of your brain; issues which will will undoubtedly hinder you in any audio endeavors you may wish to undertake.
WOW... Okay dude... whatever

not have your Cheerios this morning :rolleyes:

like everything, those graphs can be helpful when taken in context.
 
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Lee,

Personally I kind of like the idea of a graph as graphs can convey a high density of information in a very fast and clean manor (unlike one of my typical posts :) .)

That said, though, I'm not sure I quite get that microphone graph, as it seems to me that there's a bit of a conflict between the two axies. For example (without commenting on the specific mics themselves) how can something be extremely dark or bright and very transparent at the same time? Or, put another way, aren't "bright" and "dark" forms of coloration in themselves?

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
I'm not sure I quite get that microphone graph, as it seems to me that there's a bit of a conflict between the two axies. For example (without commenting on the specific mics themselves) how can something be extremely dark or bright and very transparent at the same time? Or, put another way, aren't "bright" and "dark" forms of coloration in themselves?


Consider the source. The person who created that chart is an idiot crack pot.

.
 
chessrock said:
Consider the source. The person who created that chart is an idiot crack pot.

.
Waaaaaaay too easy a target straight line :rolleyes: . I'll leave the obvious replies to this one to someone else.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Personally I kind of like the idea of a graph as graphs can convey a high density of information in a very fast and clean manor (unlike one of my typical posts :) .)

That said, though, I'm not sure I quite get that microphone graph, as it seems to me that there's a bit of a conflict between the two axies. For example (without commenting on the specific mics themselves) how can something be extremely dark or bright and very transparent at the same time? Or, put another way, aren't "bright" and "dark" forms of coloration in themselves?

G.
Graphs are fine and everything, but I think it's a generalization to trust that sort of thing too much.

For example, there might be a graph with an axis that goes from "dick" to "asshole". Now for the sake of argument, let's say it clearly showed that Ford Van is a dick and chessrock is an asshole.

No problem.

Now let's say the second axis went from "giver" to "receiver" and depicted beyond refute that our illustrious club wagon is a giver and chescrock can't get enough.

One might be able to infer that these two are in love.

Whoa, Nellie! That's reading a bit too much into things, I would think. Perhaps checkscock is mad with desire for the man-o-van who, in turn, would be practically oblivious to this poor idiot's obsession merely because of his obvious inability to communicate properly. That's not exactly paradise, and a graph isn't a very good way to deal with such subtle complexities.

I've always thought that bright to dark meant tone in terms of audio, while transparent to coloured is a reference to distortion, but distortion of such a subtle nature that we're not exactly talking about a true square wave here. That's all very nice and everything, but consider that the TLM103, KM184 and 603S are all sitting very close to each other. They're all medium bright and coloured, but probably different enough from each other that it's misleading to think that they're all going to sound the same. They don't look the same. They don't cost the same. They aren't made with the exact same components. At best, the chart might serve to help people figure out what the terms mean, and a very rough ballpark idea of what the mic might sound like. I noticed that all the ribbon mics except the C&T are sitting on the dark side. That might be sort of useful to know, but the only real way to know exactly what one of these mics will sound like for you is to get one and use it. Again, I find it difficult to believe that an Oktava pencil mic sounds like a vocal ribbon mic, but taken for what it is, I still think it's a pretty cool looking chart.


sl
 
snow lizard said:
Graphs are fine and everything, but I think it's a generalization to trust that sort of thing too much.
That'a a beautiful post and it brings up a good point; that just because someting is provided in graph form does not mean it's purposeful. When done right, a picture (or graph) is worth a thousand words. When done wrong it's about as meaningless as breast implants on a bull.

For example a chart that has as it X axis a range that measures time in increments from the color green on the left to the directon of west on the right, and a Y axis that measures degree of usefulness from chessrock posts on the bottom to bull breast implants on th top, one would immediately know that it is an extremely flawed chart because posts from chessrock and bull breast implants display exactly the same amount of usefulness.

As to the real chart at hand, from my IMHO perspective, anything that deviates from transparent is, by definition, a form of distortion. Coloration is a form of distortion, and brightness and darkness are forms of coloration. To call the AKG 451 extremely bright but only slightly colored, as the graph implies, seems a built-in contradiction to me.

G.
 
IMHO, the charts are misleading, at best. Think about mikes, for example. There are many different ways that mikes deviate from "transparency". The polar pattern varies, on purpose. Non-omni mikes generally have proximity effect, which is complex enough and a function of distance. Then there are on-axis frequency response variations, such as HF bumps. Then there is the multi-parameter space of off-axis coloration. Then there are differences in transient response. To lump all of that stuff into one axis, or even two, and then put "transparent" as one extreme with some collection of "semi-colored" mikes in the middle where the axes cross is less than useless to me. I think Einstein said something like "explanations of nature should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." These charts portray things as way simpler than they are, which is a disservice, and worse than having no such chart.

Cheers,

Otto
 
I think the idea of the graph is kind of fun. But an MXL v67 would be dark and colored? That thing is shrill as hell. A shure sm7 virtually transparent? not even close. An avalon 737 more clean/transparent than a Hardy? Definately some info here that is at least not based upon fact, but upon "opinion". Certainly not an "opinion" I would want making my decisions. But, the preamp chart seems to have a little more direction to me than the mic one. The mic one is nearly impossible to discern properly.
 
None of the grids has an axis for smoothness vs. graininess or low transient response vs. high transient response and I have a problem with the words colored vs transparent as a general rule. A more scientific approach would be to create a grid with transient response and frequency characteristics and best response range. These are better variables. Of course you would need a baseline preamp like a Grace or similar, better yet a Massenburg to be neutral and fast.

It's a decent first stab however at trying to categorize the sound of gear. I think the intent is useful but it needs additional work.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Waaaaaaay too easy a target straight line :rolleyes: . I'll leave the obvious replies to this one to someone else.

G.


Ding Ding.

Always interesting to see what comes up from these kind of things. Of course I figured the graph being such a subjective thing, what the general concensus would be on something that really varies greatly among people.

and of course, the credibility of the author of these kind of things, well lets just say I don't dive into that murky water. :D

My first impression really was kind of like this "all about BMWs" coloring book that really lays out general asthetics rather than deeply precise scaling. Kind of like a "well thats close enough" situation.

However, I do continue to like the concept of being able to classify the tools we use to let some better understand whats going on there.

I've definitely agreed with, and pondered a lot of the points made here.

I wonder if AES has done something along these lines?...hmmm.
 
LeeRosario said:
I wonder if AES has done something along these lines?...hmmm.

Last time I chatted with David Josephson about the issue, which was a couple of years ago, he was still chair of the AES working group on microphone characterization. He was fairly frustrated that other makers were not interested in producing and publicizing detailed plots of off-axis response and not the least bit optimistic that the situation would ever change.

Cheers,

Otto
 
snow lizard said:
For example, there might be a graph with an axis that goes from "dick" to "asshole". Now for the sake of argument, let's say it clearly showed that Ford Van is a dick and chessrock is an asshole.

No problem.

Now let's say the second axis went from "giver" to "receiver" and depicted beyond refute that our illustrious club wagon is a giver and chescrock can't get enough.

One might be able to infer that these two are in love.

Whoa, Nellie! That's reading a bit too much into things, I would think. Perhaps checkscock is mad with desire for the man-o-van who, in turn, would be practically oblivious to this poor idiot's obsession merely because of his obvious inability to communicate properly. That's not exactly paradise, and a graph isn't a very good way to deal with such subtle complexities.
/QUOTE]

Best post ever.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
When done wrong it's about as meaningless as breast implants on a bull.
G.

You mean you don't find that meaningful? Don't give me that bull shit!
 
rory said:
You mean you don't find that meaningful? Don't give me that bull shit!
Perhaps I should have used the word "useless" instead of "meaningless". :cool:

G.
 
Let's just say that, if one were to devise a chart on "level of faith I put in his/her competency on said subject" ...

I would put Dan Richards' opinions on anything audio-related somewhere between President Bush's ability to accurately pronounce the word "Nuclear" and Southside Glen's grasp of the "ghost mono" concept.
.
 
One thing you and Dubya have in common, chess; you just have no idea when you've lost.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
One thing you and Dubya have in common, chess; you just have no idea when you've lost.

G.

Oh, this is a political forum, now? :rolleyes:
 
tdukex said:
Oh, this is a political forum, now? :rolleyes:
Nothing political here. The anonymous forum spitball shooter that calls himself "chessrock" compared me to the President. I was just responding in kind.

I could just as easily say that Santa Claus was like Bill Clinton because they both have white hair. Nothing political there either...unless you want to get into the politics of Santa Claus :) .

G.
 
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