Old School recordings

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Harvey Gerst said:
No, it was music first, to be more popular.

I mentioned Hendrix a lot, but I was pretty good friends with Zappa, the Byrds, Buffalo Springfield, and a bunch of other groups and people. First time I heard "The Band" was when Eric Clapton played a test pressing for me at a party ar Alan Parson's house.

I turned Bob Dylan on to a thing we were doing called "Folk Rock", and I guess I influenced him to reinvestigate electric guitars. The two songs I wrote with Roger McGuinn became the catalyst for The Byrds. The band I was in broke up and became The Association. John Denver was the opening act for us.

I'd sometimes drive Jim Morrison home from the Whisky, but that stopped after he threw up in my car one night. I was one of the last people to see Janis Joplin alive. She stopped by my table at closing time to make sure I was going to be at Elektra the next morning to hear her new album. The next morning, I got an call from Paul Rothchild telling me she had died; I didn't believe him at first.

I learned to play blues from Brownie McGee and Mississippi John. Still play the blues badly.

Learned "Travis picking" from Merle Travis - it didn't help.

Played Merle's guitar, Jimi's Strat, Jerry Garcia's guitar, and Earl Scruggs' banjo; it didn't make me sound better.

I designed the JBL "F" series of musical instrument speakers, the Acoust Control 261 and 361 amplifiers, worked with Harold Rhodes (as his only employee) on the Rhodes piano, designed the Charvel and Jackson guitar and bass amplifiers, designed the prototype of what became the CAD E-200 multipattern mic, and I'm currently designing some very unique monitor speakers for a well known audio company.

How'zat for tooting my horn? And that's just a few things I can recall off the top of my head.

That's pretty damn impressive Harvey. :eek: After you mentioned the JBL "F" speakers, I know that I saw your name in The Guitar Amp Handbook and another might have been The Tube Amp Workbook. I'd love to hear you play some blues some time. Maybe I could add some of your "bad" blues licks to my collection of most likely "worse" blues licks.

I'm wondering if the "Whisky" is the same place that was the stomping grounds of alot of the big 80's metal bands. I remember seeing that place come up in some video's when I was a kid. I'm not much on metal any more but it would still be interesting to know.

"No, it was music first, to be more popular." That could have worked out pretty well for me when I was younger but instead it turned me into a reclusive, moody s.o.b. I spend way too much time "house" playing and rarely get out, play, and just have fun. I really feel like a hermit after hearing about some of your experiences.

I'm sure you'll get a bunch of questions about that post so I'll lay off for a bit.
 
Lots of info about Harvey in this 2004 discussion from rec.audio.pro.

My favorite bit is this:

One time I was walking my grandma to the market when a gang of toughs held me at knife point, stole my wallet, slapped granny, and then put the knife to my throat. As they started to get away, guess who was there to stop them. None other then Harvey Gerst. Yup. Harvey Gerst. He must have learned some karate while writing with the Byrds because he beat the hell out of those guys and got my wallet back. Great guy.
Steve / www.bangrecording.com / www.blacklinerock.com

Tim
 
Harvey Gerst said:
I turned Bob Dylan on to a thing we were doing called "Folk Rock", and I guess I influenced him to reinvestigate electric guitars.

That's very cool. So did you ever work directly with Sam Lay? He was with Dylan at Newport when they got boo'd off the stage (I'm know I'm not telling you anything you don't know) and played on the Highway 61 sessions. I got to work with him once, and it was very cool.

Thankfully being in Chicago I've been able to run into a few (a very few granted) of the old Chess/MoTown guys and the engineers who worked with them, it's kind of like knowing the people who know the people, ya know? :)) Did you ever spend time in Chicago, or just in L.A. and Texas?


How'zat for tooting my horn? And that's just a few things I can recall off the top of my head.

Ever thought about writing a book? I'd read it, especially from an engineer's point of view.
 
RAK said:
That's very cool. So did you ever work directly with Sam Lay? He was with Dylan at Newport when they got boo'd off the stage (I'm know I'm not telling you anything you don't know) and played on the Highway 61 sessions. I got to work with him once, and it was very cool.
No, I only met Dylan the one time at the Troubador when he came up on stage to jam with the Men (and we were playing "folk rock"). He did some Everly Brothers and Buddy Holly songs with us, and later we heard he was raving about us and talking about how folk rock was gonna be the next big thing. Then he showed at Newport with an electric guitar.
RAK said:
Thankfully being in Chicago I've been able to run into a few (a very few granted) of the old Chess/MoTown guys and the engineers who worked with them, it's kind of like knowing the people who know the people, ya know? :)) Did you ever spend time in Chicago, or just in L.A. and Texas?
I'm originally from Chicago, but most of my music career was in Los Angeles.
RAK said:
Ever thought about writing a book? I'd read it, especially from an engineer's point of view.
I've thought about it; never did it.
 
Don't like the Beatles

Hopefully you are young and just don't know any better. Without the Beatles most of the"bands" you like would never have seen the light of day. Give some props where they're obviously deserved!!!
 
Timothy Lawler said:
Lots of info about Harvey in this 2004 discussion from rec.audio.pro.

My favorite bit is this:



Tim

I guess I'm 2 years too late. Harvey has already been there done that with the "all about Harvey thread" too. That thread's an interesting read. Thanks Tim. I've honestly never searched for any mentions of Harvey's name but like I said, I've seen his name pop up more than a few times. I always think, hey that's the mic guy from homerec. That's one hell of an understatement. Harvey the crime fighting ninja, :D . That's a better image.
 
TravisinFlorida said:
Harvey the crime fighting ninja, :D . That's a better image.
And that's the only part of the thread that wasn't true.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
And that's the only part of the thread that wasn't true.

Yea, I picked up on the bullshit vibe there.............grandma, the market, gang of toughs, knife to my throat........... :D It all sounded kind of "little red riding hood" to me. I did'nt mind reading it though. It's a hell of alot more fun to read than the typical "best rap mic for under $100" threads around here. If things keep going like this, I'm gonna have to learn how to rap just so I can shoot the shit over all these proprietary hip-hop mics. :D Maybe mxl should look into this.........the v187. A dual capsule design similar to the v67i, except one capsule is tuned for "hip" and the other for "hop". Paint it pure white with a little red swoosh logo just below the grill and they'd monopolize the market. Tell them that I expect to see a royalty check in the mail every quarter for that idea.

Harvey, do you or have you ever had any interest in tube guitar amplifiers? I'm about to acquire and start bulding my first tube amp kit, a jtm45 type circuit. Do you have any experiences with early marshall and bassman amps? What's your favorite guitar amp of all time? Any thoughts on how specific speakers contribute to an amps overdrive character?
 
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Harvey Gerst said:
I'm originally from Chicago, but most of my music career was in Los Angeles.

Which part of Chicago? When did you relocate? Just curious.
 
TravisinFlorida said:
Harvey, do you or have you ever had any interest in tube guitar amplifiers? I'm about to acquire and start bulding my first tube amp kit, a jtm45 type circuit. Do you have any experiences with early marshall and bassman amps? What's your favorite guitar amp of all time? Any thoughts on how specific speakers contribute to an amps overdrive character?
I have some experience and interest in tube amps. My favorite tube amp was one I designed for Delta Products - an amp company that I owned, which folded before it got off the ground in 1977. It was a modeling amplifier and decades ahead of its time.

Among some amps that are out there today, I like the old Fender Twin, the Traynor YTB-1 (similar to the JTM-45), the old reflex Ampegs, and the 410 Bassman.

For speakers, I really like the old JBL's and some of the newer Emminence and Weber speakers, as well as a few of the Celestions (like the Greenbacks).
 
RAK said:
Which part of Chicago? When did you relocate? Just curious.
I was around 10 or so when we moved to California in 1948. I think we lived pretty near Garfield Park in Chicago.
 
Well, I just found out I'm gonna be discussed in two new books; one is the history of JBL, and the other is a history of Fender amps.

I guess being a survivor does eventually pay off.

I suspect this new studio monitor "system" I'm working on will surpass some of the previous stuff I did.
 
The beatles would record their first albums live. They would all play at the same time.

They did their first album in a single day.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Well, I just found out I'm gonna be discussed in two new books; one is the history of JBL, and the other is a history of Fender amps.

I guess being a survivor does eventually pay off.

I suspect this new studio monitor "system" I'm working on will surpass some of the previous stuff I did.

Congrats. Is there anything that will make this new monitoring system stand out from other monitoring systems? What exactly do you mean when you say "system"?

BigMike said:
The beatles would record their first albums live. They would all play at the same time.

They did their first album in a single day.

and imo, they sounded great.
 
TravisinFlorida said:
Congrats. Is there anything that will make this new monitoring system stand out from other monitoring systems? What exactly do you mean when you say "system"?
I can't say too much about the idea since there are several patents that hafta be filed and it's still several months from production, maybe even a year. The company that I'm designing this for has the bucks to do it right and it will certainly change the way a lot of people look at studio monitoring systems in the future.

It ain't gonna be another "Me, too." system; it's a complete system that changes at each stage of a recording project; from tracking to mixing to mastering. It's a radical departure from conventional systems and it may not be for everyone, but I'm hoping it will set some new standards for other companies to aim at.

I've never been a conventional designer; I like to push the boundries - hell, I like to run 'em over. Copying other products to simply cut into a share of their market has never made any sense to me.

Someone once said to me, "If you're gonna pull a sled, always be the lead dog. If you're not the lead dog, the view is always the same."

I never forgot it.
 
Hmmm. A monitoring system that adapts to the different stages of production. This sounds very interesting. You had better not croak before this system emerges. :D I really do want to see what this is all about............oh and I would'nt want you to croak any time soon either. I know you said that you can't let out any details but I have to ask. Does this system involve convolution, phase cancellation, or room/speaker modeling?
 
TravisinFlorida said:
I know you said that you can't let out any details but I have to ask. Does this system involve convolution, phase cancellation, or room/speaker modeling?
There will be some adjustments available for how the system is being used, but the entire system is so unique, that aspect is almost the least of it. It's a whole new approach to listening, and controlling the playback environment.

Even though it's my basic overall design and concept, it involves 3 other noted speaker and electronics designers.

As far as me croaking, I've already sent the speakers and crossover design off to them and I expect to have a 3-way call with the company on Monday to discuss the rest of the design details. I don't know if we can hit the September AES show with the system, but the Winter NAMM show is a definite possibility.

And I still have about 3 other speaker designs that they might be interested in if this one works for them.One of my high end designs will go head to head with the top of the line mastering speaker systems (like Dunlevy, Quested, etc.) - at a very hefty price, unfortunately.
 
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TravisinFlorida said:
Hmmm. A monitoring system that adapts to the different stages of production. This sounds very interesting. You had better not croak before this system emerges. :D I really do want to see what this is all about. I know you said that you can't let out any details but I have to ask. Does this system involve convolution, phase cancellation, or room/speaker modeling?
I realized after I wrote my response, it was really a bullshit answer because I didn't directly address your questions. Lemme see if I can give you some partial answers by letting you in on my thinking about monitor systems in the 3 areas you asked about.

Phase Cancellation:
This is the old "time aligned" problem and the normal solution doesn't work, except in what I call the "put your head-in-a-vice" position, where there is one sweet spot and anyone out of that spot is screwed. The problem still remains, move your head one way or the other (even slightly), and your "time alignment" goes to hell.

In addition, when you dump capacitors and chokes into a crossover, you're gonna get phase shift (as much as 180 degrees at the crossover frequency) - that's how crossovers work. It something you try to minimize as a speaker designer, but you hafta live with it. Bi-amplification can help there, but the difference isn't too apparent, nor are there many workable solutions at the low cost end of the market.

Room/speaker Modeling:
Except in the most general terms, this just doesn't work. You're trying to adjust problems in the time domain with fixes in the frequency domain. Room nodes are like giant coke bottles; when energy hits them, they're excited and either toot sympathetically, or suck out the energy in that frequency range. The important thing to remember is that it takes time for that energy to build up and more time to dissapate; it's slow as shit. Trying to eliminate nodes by cutting down levels at some frequencies just doesn't work.

You need to take the room out of the picture (which nearfield speakers do), but then, you suffer all the problems associated with small boxes. You need to be able to create a new non-room dependent, coherent soundfield in the mid and far fields which does not depend on the inconsistancy of most monitoring rooms.

Convolution:
A great idea for creating specific room reflections of larger rooms for reverbs, but I don't see much application in home studios anytime in the near future. The DSP computing power required for predictive convolution correction would be enormous. It works well for adding reflections and nodes - not for taking them away.

Finally,
There are other problems in conventional speakers that most of the public aren't even aware of; when the frequency length is equal to or shorter than the speaker diameter, the dispersion begins to suffer, as the speaker first lobes, then beams, as the frequency increases. So, above a certain frequency, the response is gonna get wonky.

At the other end of the spectrum, speakers can work well down to their resonance, but below that, they drop off at 12 dB per octave. Put in a port to help them out and they'll drop off at 18 dB per octave below that. Put a speaker in a small box and the trapped air inside the box acts as a spring and raises the resonant point. Whatever you do in one area, you're fucked in another area!

Designing speakers is largely a game of compromise; trade off a little of this to get a little more of that. But sometimes, you hafta think outside the box (excuse the pun). That's what I did with this new system. You can't break the laws of physics, but if you look at it just the right way, you can mangle the hell out of them. That's what I'm hoping to do with this new system.

I know when we show this system at the AES and NAMM shows, I'm gonna hear some people say, "You're cheating!" My answer will be, "Yeah, so what? It works, doesn't it?"

I can't say much more than this right now.
 
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Thanks for the explanation and the technical info Harvey. Will this system be targeted toward home recording, pro applications, or maybe the full spectrum? If home recording enthusiasts are part of the target customer base, how can so many crumby rooms be taken into consideration in this systems design?

I have another question for you Harvey. In your experience, are there any specific benefits or pitfalls in phase cancellation vs. equalization? Or would the answer be based on the specific application? For example, you've miced up a acoustic guitar that has the tone you're looking for but at the same time it sounds boomy. You can simply reach for the eq and make your necessary cuts or you could find the boomy frequency range using eq, create a new track only containing those offending frequencies, and reverse phase of the new track for phase cancellation.

I guess another option would be to use 2 mics strategically placed for the desired phase cancellation. Im guessing here but I would assume that any movement by the performer would introduce unwanted phase distortion.
 
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TravisinFlorida said:
Thanks for the explanation and the technical info Harvey. Will this system be targeted toward home recording, pro applications, or maybe the full spectrum? If home recording enthusiasts are part of the target customer base, how can so many crumby rooms be taken into consideration in this systems design?
The first system will be aimed at both home applications and smaller pro studios. To answer your question, I intend to take the "crumby rooms" out of the equation. Remember in my first post, I said, "You need to be able to create a new non-room dependent, coherent soundfield in the mid and far fields which does not depend on the inconsistancy of most monitoring rooms." For better high end rooms, I have a very diffent system in mind.
TravisinFlorida said:
I have another question for you Harvey. In your experience, are there any specific benefits or pitfalls in phase cancellation vs. equalization? Or would the answer be based on the specific application? For example, you've miced up a acoustic guitar that has the tone you're looking for but at the same time it sounds boomy. You can simply reach for the eq and make your necessary cuts or you could find the boomy frequency range using eq, create a new track only containing those offending frequencies, and reverse phase of the new track for phase cancellation.
Simple eq would be my second choice. My first choice would be better mic placement, or use another mic.
TravisinFlorida said:
I guess another option would be to use 2 mics strategically placed for the desired phase cancellation. Im guessing here but I would assume that any movement by the performer would introduce unwanted phase distortion.
Yup, that kind of phase cancellation sounds like it should work in theory, but it doesn't really work in practice.
 
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