OK What is this crap on my Otari mx70

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Talldog

Talldog

Pain in the ass
I ran my MRL tape through my new (to me) mx70 and all of this came off. Ran less than a minute. Is this sticky tape shed? It is a different color than I've seen. Is this magnetic? it wasn't on the heads. Just where you see it.
 

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I can't see any pictures... MRL tape shouldn't shed, and if it does, send it back for a refund or replacement.
 
Yeah try a repost of the picture - I would like to see what this gunk looks like.


AK
 
OK OLD mrl tape. Most of you guys have been in on my mx70 vs ms16 thread. The tape is dated 1985-12. It doesnt really look like the shed I've seen.
 
let me quote this Steve Albini post at length (it might help you diagnose):

steve
Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:13 pm

since a few people have mentioned "shedding" in this thread, I will share my contribution to a discussion of tape shed from the Ampex forum a few years ago:

Whenever I'm involved in a discussion on tape shedding, it bothers me that the term is used to describe several different effects, and I'd like to propose a new standard nomenclature for these effects:

"Shed" -- tape losing oxide particles as dust or irregular flakes, which may collect on mechanical parts of tape machines, unaccompanied by any stickyness or binder deposits.

"Shear" -- tape losing oxide coating from the cut edges of the tape as it travels in the tape path. Oxide coating will appear as "hair," or slivers, and will be most apparent when A) changing to a new tape formulation after some time using another as a "standard," or B) tape manufacturer changes slitting procedures or equipment.

"Stickyness" -- tape surface becomes sticky from depolymerization of binder over time, causing build-up of binder gum on mechanical parts of tape machine, "squeal" in tape path, and loss of oxide through adhesion.

Please, feel free to refer to this as the "albini nomenclature," because, to date, nothing else has been named after me.

Shed (albini nomenclature) is exceptionally rare, except in archival tapes of very old red-rust formulations, which are mercifally free of both shear and stickyness. I can only suggest that you clean the machine often, wind the tape gently, and don't play the tape any more than you have to for the work you need to do. I have never seen this condition make a tape utterly unplayable, so we're good for another century.

Shear (alb. nom.) is a nuisance, but is only rarely a manufacturing defect. I have heard countless times that one tape or another "sheds like crazy," and that one tape or another "don't shed a lick." The people saying this are usually referring to shear (a.n.), and have misplaced the blame. If a tape machine uses a single type of tape for a long period, all the mechanical parts become slightly worn to accommodate it (metal oxides being abrasives). Since tape manufacturers all have slightly different tolerances and standards for tape width (I always suspected 3M tape was slightly narrower than Ampex), changing tape brands may subject the new tape to a groove literally "cut" into the tape path that it is slightly too large for, and its edges will shear(a).

When the new "heavy coat" tapes were introduced (996, 499, GP9, 900), they were also stiffer than the old formulations, and didn't deform in the tape path as much, which made them especially prone to the problem.

This shearing will correct itself in time, as the new tape stock recuts the tape path to accommodate itself. This is no doubt the reason everyone says "but it ain't do it no more -- they fixt the rotten tape finally damn."

Quantegy _was_ making 1/2-inch 456 in the mid-90's that was pure bullshit in the slitting department, which caused shear and really bad azimuth problems. They invested a fortune in new slitting equipment, and it got better by 1997.

Stickyness is easily solved by baking, and the baking can be repeated in another 20 years or so when you have to play the tape again, and again after that, so quit crying about it. Quantegy will do it for free, and you can do it yourself in a food dehydrator over a weekend.

If a sticky tape _absolutely must_ be played immediately, as did several sticky tapes I had to remaster in 1991, you can wipe the surfaces of the tape, inch-by-inch with a cotton pad saturated with alcohol (change the pads often) as you wind the tape by hand onto a new reel. It'll take you all night to do it, and you'll need to clean the tape heads after every play, but it works. I don't know if this removes sufficient water from the de-polymerized chains to effect a long-term cure, but you can meet a deadline.

Of course I am referring to analog masters. Digital masters (which are also on tape, I remind the digital apologists in attendance), won't survive even the mildest of any of these defects, all of which they are subject to.

I should also point out that digital masters on metal-particle tape are particularly nasty in storage, because the metal particles are chemically aggressive enough to oxidize in air over time, which will make them unplayable if none of the above do.

In all of the above deterioration scenarios, the analog master tapes will -- in some manner -- be playable. Digital tapes, when subjected to the slightest of either deterioration or deformation, become utterly unplayable. I rejoice when I think of the music from this era that will be lost forever due to this shortsightedness. As an old man, I can play my Stooges records, my Glenn Gould, my Rachel's, my Clarence Carter, and when I get bored, I can string up an Ampex and listen to some old master tapes -- but I'll never have to hear Alanis Morissette or Beck again!

-steve
_________________
steve albini
Electrical Audio
sa at electrical dot com
Quicumque quattuor feles possidet insanus est.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the Albini quote. Ran into him here in the Land of Cleve 10 years ago or so (he was working with Craw). However it doesn't tell me what the crap is.
 
It looks like "sticky-shed" to me. And even if it's not, I'd say it's time for a new alignment tape.
 
Talldog, I think the oxide is flaking off..."Tape Shed"...not sticky shed per-se, but in the same family of aggravating issues with that era of tape. Baking will not help an issue with shed.

Guys, am I on target? Does it look like tape shed to you?

I'm surprised to see it sticking to the lifter like that.

ew..:eek:
 
hmmm I'm inclined to think madAudio is right. When I bought my MX5050 2track the owner thought there was a transport issue with the machine, but the only the problem was that some sticky shed tape had been run through it.
The crap on the guides looked a lot like your picture.
after very thoroughly cleaning the entire tape path things went back to normal..
maybe that mrl should be retired.
 
That gunk is definitely tape. Several of the machines I now own came with muck just like that all over the transport.

**EDIT**
Re-reading the original post, it's interesting that it's apparently only on the guides. That suggests to me that the guides may be worn.
 
Occam's razor dude. its definitely sticky shed tape. I ran some old 456 on my Tascam 38 and the tape path looked exactly like that when I was done.

get a food dehydrator and bake the MRL for a couple days, it should be good enough to calibrate the deck. Close enough for rock n roll.

the guides on my MX5050 are a little bit worn, but the tape path doesn't look like that after running new SM911. I'll bet if you run it long enough it will end up on the heads.
 
Talldog said:
The tape is dated 1985-12.
Click to expand...

If I'm not mistaken, most, if not all of the MRL tapes dated until Quantegy took over, in the mid 90's, were produced using the old Ampex formula, which had the bad binder.

Your MRL tape is right in the middle of the worst sticky shed years and is obviously coming apart on your tape transport.

I certainly would not use that tape.

--
 
That is definitely shed - it is oxide/glue scraping off on teh ransport, you should clean thoroughly and DEMAGNETIZE. Some people say you don't need to demag, but guess what? If you didn't need to it won't hurt. But in my experience (especially lately) you will need to demag.



AK
 
I do need to demag. Not only on this deck but also the ms16. Any suggestions on a good one? The bay only has expensive ones or cheapo ones.
 
Talldog,

Han-D-Mag. Yes it'll set you back $50-$70...It'll work virtually forever and it will actually get the job done. Don't get the cheapy ones. They don't work. I've been there. Have a Han-D-Mag now and I am a believer. Anybody here that has experienced it will tell you the same thing. Get the right tool.
 
And when you demag, make SURE that the machine is OFF! This is very important. I always took the extra step of disconnecting my 38's ins and outs when demagging, though some might say that was going too far.
 
nope, not too far MadAudio - make a ritual and you won't ever make the BIG mistake I say.

AK
 
analogkid said:
nope, not too far MadAudio - make a ritual and you won't ever make the BIG mistake I say.

AK
Click to expand...

Then how come it took me twice to learn never to leave a full glass of wine sitting right in front of my mixer? :o :D
 
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