Ok here's the dealie-o

[WATYF]

Once second though - Have you heard anything about the RODE NTK mics? I heard they are reall good compared to other higher end mics. Do you think there will be a noticable difference between the U87 and the RODE NTK?

Yes there is a noticeable difference... there are plenty of people who won't notice the difference... but your average music listener listens to their music in 128K mp3 through computer speakers and they think it sounds great... so you have to decide... do you want to spend the money to get the best results, or do you bank on the fact that most people won't notice the difference. The difference will be in the clarity/presence of certain frequencies and the way the voice is "colored" by the mic.

Thats sounds good, I will read up on that too. Quick question regarding pre-amps though - I have been looking at pre-amps and I see some that say "tube" and some don't can you explain what tube mans and what it does. Thanks in advance...

"Tube" means that there is actually a tube in the mic pre. It's much the same as old "tube" guitar amps where a tube is used in the signal processing. This gives your sound a certain "warmth" that you (usually) can't get from solid state signal processing. Many people find a tube "color" to be preferable, but that's up to individual taste, so I suggest you try out different pre's (tube and solid state) to see which you prefer. Make sure you're in the same price bracket when you do your comparisons, because a cheap tube pre isn't gonna sound as good as a nice solid state pre. (and vice versa)

Originally posted by MrWho If you hade a mid sized budget which model of the digidesign soundcards would you choose? That will help me know where to start.[/B]

Define "midsize". I dunno... I'd prolly look into an entry level PT|HD setup. (they start around 10K) But like I said, you're not just getting a sound card, you're getting a high-end audio interface (convertors, card, etc) along with the industry standard multi-track recording software (Pro Tools). This is just one option though. Don't think I'm tryin' to sell you on PT. There's a lot of other fish in the seas when it comes to audio interfaces and multi-track software. I just happen to use PT (I have a digi001) so I'm a little more familiar with it.

Originally posted by MrWho Thanks for the heads up on that. Is it that diffucult to do that though? I was think that all I had to do is select the section of vocals I already had saved and simply use a copy and paste type function to lay the vocals over the beats..Is it more complicated then that and if so do u care to explain in more detail...?

I have no idea about compression, mixing and EQ'ing.....Why and how would I need to do all that to vocals that are just going over beats?[/B]

Well... see... it all depends on how you want your results to sound. Basically, yes, you could say something into a mic, and then lay that right over a beat and leave it at that... but it won't exactly sound good... let alone "pro". Once you get a high-end mic and a high-end pre, you're gonna capture a very accurate picture of your room. So, the first step is room treatment. If you're turning a room into a studio, I would suggest building a vocal booth. That will allow you to treat a small portion of the room specifically for vocals. If you don't, then you will sound like you just recorded it while standing in a bedroom. Then, you will have to get a decent mic placement.. now... fortunately, for vocals, this isn't too difficult. If you were recording, say, an acoustic guitar... it would be a royal pain in the @ss to get a great mic placement... but with vocals, you just need to get a nice pop-filter and get up on the mic in a way where you get a clear sound, with not too much proximity effect. Then, once you start actually talking/singing into the mic, you will have to configure the mic pre's settings. If you choose a tube pre such as the avalon (which is also a compressor) you will have to make yourself familiar with compression. You'll have to set the pre up so that you get the right amount of compression/warmth/color without making it sound too compressed or not compressed enough. These steps are the most important. Capturing a quality signal is more important than anything... because there's only so much you can do with effects and what not. Once you've captured the signal and you have it on "tape" (or, in your hard drive, rather) then you need to mix it with the beat. Assuming you are given a quality beat, you will need to decide how to properly EQ and level your vocal so that it sits well in the mix with the beat. You will also need to decide what kind of effects you want to use on your voice. Do you want it to have a large stereo spread? do you want it to sound "huge"? or "in-your-face"? or "gritty"? or whatever. There's a lot you can do with vocals once you get them tracked, and you'll wanna get familiar with the options that are available to you.

I don't want to make it sound impossible... because it's not... hell... I still haven't got a clue what I'm doing, and I still get by. If this is something you really want to do, then go for it. Start off with what you think you need... (a mic, a pre, and an interface) get to know your gear... try stuff out... and then add on to that. I just don't want you to think that you can buy a nice mic/pre/soundcard, plug everything in and be ready to go. There's a lot more involved than that. It takes time to learn all this crap. And don't be surprised if your first results are kind of disappointing... (God knows mine were... and still are ) But after a while, you get the hang of all the different aspects of getting a good sound and eventually it's just second nature.


WATYF

 

[Krypto]

MrWho and friends,
Don't take my comment as 'dissing' rap. To me, it's a whole different set of concerns than if you were tracking, let's say a string ensemble or jazz vocals. There's a level of subtlety there that would warrant a high end mic and pre.

The thing about rap, to me, is that the content and rhythm of speech carries the message and the concept. Other types of music rely on mood and nuance that can be conveyed better by high end equipment.

What I'm saying is don't throw your money away. Learn your craft first.

LAZI - I've taken money from people whose music was not exactly my cup of tea. Their response was that they came back. Don't judge what you don't know. Also, what great shit is Dre doing that anyone here with some talent could not reproduce?

AND....'artiste' is a word.

 

[LAZI]

My bad KRYPTO...

Im not up for debates so ask that DRE crap over at the HIPHOP forum.

I think my point was missed... No real disrespect was intended. Just friendly fire... I just kinda used you're theory as an example. Kinda of as in it will better in the end learn to do it yourself (if you can) rather than to have somebody who doesn't really care about or have experience with your genre screwing it up.

Now help or get the hell on... Would a smiley make this digest better. Take 2 and post something useful...

P.S. Put up your U87 and pull out a SM57 on me... You better be ready to swallow it. Ya know mic placement and all...

 

[MrWho]

Actually, Krypto's right about one thing... Rap was not done using top-of-the-line anything.... a boombox and a voice was all the gear that was used.

That is true but notice the keyword - "Was"

That was like 10 years ago, alot of things have changed now. Just look at the billboards nowadays. I'm not really trying to have my end result sound like it was made 10 years ago.

And if you're thinking long term - then you better be thinking REAL long term... it takes a long time and effort to learn the recording skills it would take to compete with the majors. So much so that if your full-time gig is to develop a music career as well as a label and distribution network, it's very unlikely that you'll have the time necessary to also develop engineering skills to the degree required for you to DIY.

I suggest you rethink some of your priorities because you simply cannot do it all. [/B]

I'm pretty confident that I will succeed. Every hurdle I face I seem to conquer. I am in a good position finacally to do this now because of patience, investing & saving and a vision. This isn't some overnite thing, this right here is years of determination and will power. I have just been patiently waiting in the background getting my money right.

Maybe it seems hard to you but I feel like Im built for this. In my eyes - life without challenge is life without cause.

 

[MrWho]

Hmmmmmm, How did you "save" the vocals to begin with? And yes, it is alot more complicated than that. You'll find out when you "copy and paste" the vocals onto the beats (whatever that means) that often times they don't mesh together very well. Why is that? You'll need to read up on gain staging/mic placement/acoustics/eq'ing/compressors
etc...

Think of recording/mixing like any other
musical instrument (do you play any?)
It takes time to learn and you can't just ask -
"I just brought a top of the line Martin
D45, now it can't be too hard to play, I mean I bang on the string and it makes noise, right? So tell me where to put my left-hand fingers so it makes the right note."

Now I don't want to discourage anyone from learning, after all I teach guitar so I can appreciate where a beginner fits in, but I don't want people to expect recording will be as easy as buying "top of the line" equipment and asking "where do I put the knob that says 'ratio' so my sounds come out kicking?"

Good luck!

Please don't take my decision to go with top of the line stuff out of context. I'm no fool, I don't for any reason think top quality equipment will magically make my stuff sound better. I just see buying industry standard equipment as an investment and I want to spend my money wisely. Please don't take my effort to obtain an edge on the competition as some fool that thinks the equipment will do all the work for him, that's not my ambition. My goal is to gain an edge in every area possible.

Thanks for your input..but remember this thread is about equipment suggestions not discouraging my choice to seek out quality equipment.

 

[MrWho]

I think you should ask this question again over on the RAP section of this BBS. To many people still hate rap becuase they feel very, very lame when a trill hiphop cat walks in the room.

Thanks for the ecouragement. When people start saying things that could possibly make me stray from my vision I try to imagine how many times puff daddy, master p and suge knight heard "that's not possible" during their struggles. Personally I have gone through making something from nothing, now that I have something I feel like this is a small challenge compared to what Im used to. Thanks again for the ecouragment, it is appreciated.

Blue Bear is kinda right but do what the hell you wanna do... I think you are on the right track for a cat that wants to spit on his on dime. Don't let these fools change your mind because the fact is it's still better to control your own sound than to go to a dip shit like KRYPAL up there. He will no doubt take your money and then fuck up your project because he doesn't think your style of music type is worth the attention. He thinks he can do a DR. DRE mix with a SM57 and a MACKIE... I quess that's one run to a tape deck to huh?

If it would be so easy for this guy to emulate and even exceed dr. dre's beats & production skills you really have to ask yourself why he's in the top 2 position for richest celebrities and not him. It's easy to sit back and say "I can do that, that's easy!" But thats kinda like saying you want to win the lottery without ever buying a lottery ticket.

 

[MrWho]

WATYF

Thank you for your quality reply. Your suggestions and opinions are very balanced. I believe alot in karma and I also believe it is on your side brotha. Since your post has alot of info that is relavent to my question Im going to take a bit longer to read and reply to it. Thanks again.

 

[moskus]

Just my thoughts on the subject:

I've always thought it's best to buy equipment that's on the same line as your knowledge. If you don't know much about recording, then I woudln't recommend buying the best thing right away. It's a learning curve with everything, and I would suggest you learn how to use the "basic" equipment before shelling out for the "best".

"The basics is best learnt with basic equipment" I heard someone say, and I think there's a lot into that because you learn to get the best out of the equipment you're using now... When it's the equipment and not you that's holding the sound back, then upgrade.

 

[MrWho]

Enuff with opinions!

Naw seriously though, I know everyone likes to chit-chat and voice what they stand for, but at least mix it in with "but if I was forced to suggest a pre-amp, mic and soundcard I would get the....?"

I mean it's all good to share your knowledge that you have gained from your experiences but this is my situation and this is what I want to do. So please advice me on such. Please go ahead & feel free to voice how you would do it but please let's stick to the subject and start getting technical.

I havent counted but I think I have more opinions vs equipment suggestions. Let's get technical guys! Where are all the tech GODS?Let's gown down to the nitty gritty! I just need some direction as far as what to look for, what to avoid and some brand names that are trusted, tried & proven.



MrWho?

 

[MrWho]

Again...

I'm looking for hardware that's like the lexus is to luxury cars. Value is equal to quality. Something that is higher end but not over priced. Mic, pre-amp and soundcard.

 

[gordone]

Re: Again...

You sound determined and have a great positive attitude! I don't do rap music (I do folk/acoustic/bluegrass) but for preamps, look into offerings by Great River (I have the MP2) and for mics look into Soundelux (I have the now discontinued U97). Others will hopefully chime in with suggestions as well. Good luck!

I'm looking for hardware that's like the lexus is to luxury cars. Value is equal to quality. Something that is higher end but not over priced. Mic, pre-amp and soundcard.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

I'm looking for hardware that's like the lexus is to luxury cars. Value is equal to quality. Something that is higher end but not over priced. Mic, pre-amp and soundcard.

Here's your first engineering lesson --- the reason you need some experience before shelling out for top gear is that there is no ONE piece of gear that does everything.... you have to select gear based on the application at the time - sometimes the $99 mic/Neve pre is the proper tool, other times it's the $15K Neumann through an ART Tube MP...

The point is, you need to learn the craft to make reasonable gear-buying decisions... whether you drop $150k on high-end gear or $10 on cheapo-crap, you're still not going to know what to do with it all when you get it.... ged'dit???

Anyways -- from the tone of your posts you're not listening to genuine advice anyways, so go HERE.... take your pick - it's all top of the line pro stuff.... as for the price - that's what the good stuff costs - deal with it...!

 

[Toki987]

Just my thoughts on the subject:

I've always thought it's best to buy equipment that's on the same line as your knowledge. If you don't know much about recording, then I woudln't recommend buying the best thing right away. It's a learning curve with everything, and I would suggest you learn how to use the "basic" equipment before shelling out for the "best".

"The basics is best learnt with basic equipment" I heard someone say, and I think there's a lot into that because you learn to get the best out of the equipment you're using now... When it's the equipment and not you that's holding the sound back, then upgrade.

Thats exactly why I still run my lil' race with a $28 soundcard and antiquated outboard gear...

 

[beaverbiscuit]

Anyways -- from the tone of your posts you're not listening to genuine advice anyways, so go HERE.... take your pick - it's all top of the line pro stuff.... as for the price - that's what the good stuff costs - deal with it...!

With all due respect, are you sure that this is fair to say? I haven't gotten the impression that MrWho isn't listening but rather that he's trying to understand the logic behind how y'all make purchase decisions. If anything he might be accused of naivete, but that's just a result of inexperience. He even asked that the posts stay on topic with suggestions of gear choices; if he just wanted a quick fix to make himself sound great, he wouldn't have asked that, would he?

I'm just a recording newbie who has a long way to climb on the learning curve, so I can't make any suggestions that would be based on my own experience. But I think I can understand the desire to invest in high-quality gear now rather than buying one's way up eventually. I don't think I'd take that approach even if I had the money, but it seems to me that MrWho is just trying to make a conscious decision to puchase "once, to last a long time" rather than "often, to last until the next upgrade."

I'm not attacking or lashing out, especially not at you, Blue Bear. I respect your contributions to this board and have learned from you. I just wondered if maybe there was a communication gap in this situation, that's all. So I'll shut up now and let the discussion commence. ;0

BTW, MrWho, sorry I'm not able to make any specific recommendations, but you might consider checking around for used gear that other home reccers are letting go. I got my Tascam M-520 because the seller upgraded to a ProTools rig and board. Just a thought.

 

[MrWho]

I disagree

Here's your first engineering lesson --- the reason you need some experience before shelling out for top gear is that there is no ONE piece of gear that does everything.... you have to select gear based on the application at the time - sometimes the $99 mic/Neve pre is the proper tool, other times it's the $15K Neumann through an ART Tube MP...

The point is, you need to learn the craft to make reasonable gear-buying decisions... whether you drop $150k on high-end gear or $10 on cheapo-crap, you're still not going to know what to do with it all when you get it.... ged'dit???

Anyways -- from the tone of your posts you're not listening to genuine advice anyways, so go HERE.... take your pick - it's all top of the line pro stuff.... as for the price - that's what the good stuff costs - deal with it...!

I don't see what's so diffucult to understand here. You already know what I am attempting to achieve as far as my goals with how my music sounds. I have already defended those suggestions. I dont see how you see that as "not listening". I have clearly stated several times, but let me keep it simple to help you better understand :

I am not some fool that expects top of the line equipment to do the work for me! There, I said it AGAIN!

I don't see how you see that as a paticular "tone" that suggests ALL expensive equipment is worth it and I expect it to provide some magical results for ME!

Instead of helping me, the best you can do is bring up old news which in turn causes the thread to go off topic. In addition you do the exact opposite of which will contribute to guiding ME in the right direction.

I just want to discuss equipment for my needs (which have clearly been stated) and understand how you look at purchasing top quality equipment. So PLEASE, can we get down to business now that we have gotten all this BS outta the way?

I'm still confused as to what equipment I should start researching and why vs. a consensus of the experienced on hardware. I'm pretty sure that the BBS was built to help rather than confuse wouldn't you say?

MrWho?

 

[MrWho]

dude... it's late... don't expect a flurry of responses. Just be patient.


Here's my recommendations:

For the mic, get a Neumann U87. Great for vocals. Neumanns have been around forever (75 years), and the models like the U87 are proven, industry standards. (Try to see if you can snag an older model, though. Most think that they're a little better than the newer versions.) These go for aboat $2500.

For the Mic Pre, get an Avalon Tube Pre. (Something like the VT-737SP) It's a compressor/pre. They have great warmth and they are also common in "pro" sutdios. These go for aboot $2000.

Ok I look for the Neumann U87 and I found 2 different ones. Which one are you refering to?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7.../g=rec/s=computer/search/detail/base_id/35408

and

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7.../g=rec/s=computer/search/detail/base_id/35407

Also the second one has really bad ratings, I hope that's not that one your suggesting me. Quick question - As far as the RODE NTK and the Neuman U87 what are the main differences as far as tech specs? I have no idea what I would look for in a mic.

For the soundcard,... well... there's a hell of a lot to choose from. And you're gonna need software too (to mix your beats with your vox). You may want to consider an integrated solution. Since you seem to want to get "pro" quality stuff, you'll prolly want to look into Pro Tools. Check out their website and look at all the different solutions. They are also a proven, industry standard, and a lot of major studios use their stuff. Basically, they provide integrated software/audio interface products (so that you don't have to buy the software and sound card and converters and control surface separately). They start anywhere from $500 (for the entry-level stuff), all the way up to astronomical, oh-my-god-I-can't-believe-it-costs-that-much prices for the super "high-end" stuff. You can most likely find a solution that suits your needs.

Okay, thanks for the suggestions now for the questions

What is a coverters and control surface?

Can you hear the difference in quality when you use Sound Forge/Cool Edit vs. Pro tools?

We have discussed "tubes" but what else do I look for in a pre-amo?
because I already have those...

Something you'll need to keep in mind. Even though someone is gonna give you the beats and you "just" need to mix in vocals... you will still need to learn a crap-load of stuff. Compression, mixing, EQ'ing, effective mic positioning and room treatment (try not to record your vocals in the bathroom. ), etc. etc. etc. If you wanna get "pro" results, you'll need a lot more than just "pro" equipment.

OK thanks for the relative suggestions - Do you happen to have any links or threads around here about these topics?




MrWHo?

 

[WATYF]

Ok I look for the Neumann U87 and I found 2 different ones. Which one are you refering to?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7.../g=rec/s=computer/search/detail/base_id/35408

and

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7.../g=rec/s=computer/search/detail/base_id/35407

Also the second one has really bad ratings, I hope that's not that one your suggesting me. Quick question - As far as the RODE NTK and the Neuman U87 what are the main differences as far as tech specs? I have no idea what I would look for in a mic.

They're the same mic... one with a shockmount... one without. And don't pay attention to those ratings... A couple anonymous internet ratings from people who buy their gear from Musicians Friend don't exactly hold a lot of weight. As for the spec differences... sheesh... that would take a bit. Look... I see that you've been advised to check oat the NTK. And that's a decent mic, so by all means, check it out. But what you gotta realize aboot mics, is that they're kinda like women. One man's "beauty" is another man's "beast". My voice may sound great on a U87, but it may not represent your voice the best (or vise versa). You may find a better "fit" by going with something like the NTK, or we may both be off-base and you'd be better suited for a Soundelux (or whatever). My point is, researching mics will only get you so far. Thee most important part of choosing a mic is A/B'ing it in the store. So this is what I suggest. Get a couple more suggestions on mics, until you have a list of 5-10 mics that you wanna try out. Then go to your nearest gear store... make sure they have a decent selection of higher-end mics, and ask if you can A/B a few of em. Pick out all the ones they have that are on your list, grap a pop filter, and go to town. You may be very shocked to find which mic sounds best for you (and you might end up saving a bundle because of it ). I think that's prolly what Blue Bear may be implying (in his own special way ). We could tell you all day which mic to get, but until you get your hands on them and try them out, no one can say what's "best" for you.

Okay, thanks for the suggestions now for the questions

What is a coverters and control surface?

Converters are the A/D (analog to digital) converters that convert your sound from... well... analog to digital. So, when your sound comes out of the mic, it's in analog form... then it hits the sound card (or out-board converter) and it gets converted to digital format. The quality of the converters will determine how well that analog signal gets "translated". If your converters suck... then the best mic in the world won't help, because its signal is just gonna get converted poorly and you won't retain any of the quality of the signal.

A control surface is this. That's the control surface for the digi002. (You may want to look into getting the digi002 if you want to get into a PT setup for under $2500.) Your setup doesn't have to include a control surface... mine doesn't... but some people find it to be a better interface than just using software faders (and what not). With a control surface, you have an actual physical interface that is connected to your software, so you can adjust settings/faders/whatever by moving them on the control surface. If you don't use a control surface, you do all of your adjustments in the actual software (i.e. by moving faders on the screen).

Can you hear the difference in quality when you use Sound Forge/Cool Edit vs. Pro tools?

Maybe. (depends on the bit rate/sample rate you use) In essence, no... not really. Hypothetically, if you used the same mic and same pre and same converters to record a signal, and then dropped those wav files into all three of those programs, you couldn't tell a difference in sound quality... it's not the software that makes the "sound"... it's the signal chain. Now... the features of those programs differ greatly... and there's not much of a chance that you'll use the exact same signal chain will all three of those apps, so you'll most likely have slight differences, but essentially, the software is more about features and flexibility than about "sound".

We have discussed "tubes" but what else do I look for in a pre-amo?
because I already have those...

Not sure what you mean by "already have those".. but... as for pre's, they're the same as mics. One may sound great on your voice, but crappy on mine. You need to do the same with those as you do with the mics. Get a list of suggestions and try them out. I literally went through 5 pres before I settled on what I use now... I got a lot of advice on what pres were "good" in my price-range and then I tried them out. I found that some pres that people said were "great" sounded like @ss to me... and I found that others that people said were "OK" sounded better to me. So, once again... you're gonna have to get your hands dirty on this one. Grab a Great River, Avalon, Focusrite Red (or green), etc... and see which one floats your boat.

OK thanks for the relative suggestions - Do you happen to have any links or threads around here about these topics?

I don't have any off the top of my head... Just do a search, man... top of the page, right hand side... Go dig through the mic forum, the mixing forum, the studio building forum... (whatever).... there's probably not a whole lot that you won't be able to find with a few searches.


WATYF

 

[sk8ingsnowman]

This post is way late but I was in the exact same postion and Feel I can get you on track.

Your posts show that you are ready to work hard(thats good you will have too you have a lot of things to learn)

DON'T buy top of the line gear yet!!!!!!

you will be wasting money and TIME

The reason I say this is because if you buy Top of the line gear right now by the time you learn to get a PRO sound from it the gear will be outdated and you will need to upgrade.

I recommend the Digi002 rack or the Digi002 if you like hands on mixing get the 002 if you don't mind mixing on the Computer screen get the Digi002 Rack.

The reason I recomend Digidesign products is because its the industry standard and you can bring you session files to a larger studio if neccesary and its also good to know the industry standard equipment.

Another reason for Digi is they always have events and demos to help you learn the equipment faster.

I think your under estimating the recording process (Your willingness to put a lot of hard work into it is and awesome start) I am half way through the Recording Arts degree program at Full Sail www.fullsail.com I spent $30,000 to learn the art of recording I felt like my skills were pretty advance from what I had taught myself on my Digi001 and Digi002 rack but am learning tips and tricks of the pros that I could have never learned on my own. to get that pro sound your going to have to find a way to learn the recording process books, classes, friends etc....

Like you I hate buying equipment knowing that I will be upgrading but you will be capable of getting a pretty damn close to pro sound on the digi002 and when you master that go for the top of the line (I can't tell you what top of the line gear to get because by the time your ready for it it will be something different then whats out now)

this is only for your recording equipment buy top of the line mics and pres because those don't need upgraded if you by the best