Sirnothingness
Banned
ggunn said:
That was fucking funny!
That was fucking funny!
J
Jouni
New member
I just replaced the nut on my bass.
Fuck, nothing to it... I'll I had was a Victorinox multipliers and two slotted blanks from stew-mac. Didn't need the other one.
Took off the strings, the old nut slided right to the side with my thumb. Took the blank and filed it to size, leaving a millimeter or so to the height as workingground for fine tuning.. Filed the width to suit the cavity.
Slided the nut where the old one was and found out it was a tad too high, filed off the excess every now and then checkin things with strings on --> loosening the strings-->filing down--put strings, test. repeat.
I used an old string to do the final grinding of the slots... (BEAD)
..turned them black, but worked.
It took some time... I changed the bridge, pickups and the nut in one evening though.
-Martin koch:Building electric guitars:
"Setting the string height at the nut
At the nut the distance between the bottom of the strings and the
fingerboard surface should be no greater than the fret height. An
action that is too high in the nut area will lead to a wrong
intonation, the pitch becoming too high as the string is tensioned
too strongly when pressed down at the first fret. Besides,
the guitar will be uncomfortable to play because of the fingers
having to press harder and the strings feeling stiff. The fretheight
line drawn on the nut comes in handy now: file the nut
slots down to this line. See the section on how to make the neck
for details of how this is best done. Use a saw for deepening the
slots for the thin strings and special nut files for the other slots.
The slots for the bass strings can also be made deeper with a
needle file. Take each string out of its slot and put it into a
neighboring one before you deepen the slots. On radiused
fingerboards the height of the strings has to follow its curve and
the strings must all be equally high above the fingerboard. If you
press down the strings one by one now, you should need the
same amount of pressure for each string. Deepen the nut slots if
necessary until all strings feel similar. There should only be very
little room for the strings over the first fret when pressed down
between the 2nd and 3rd fret.
If the action is set too low, the vibrations cause the strings to
touch the frets and produce unwanted noises. If by mistake a nut
slot has been made too deep, replace the missing material with a
drop of super glue, allow it to harden overnight and then redo the
slot. If all nuts slots are too deep, glue a suitable piece of hardwood
veneer under the nut and then file the slots down to the
right depth. Cardboard or similar materials should not be glued
under the nut as they would only dampen the transmission of
vibrations. To prevent making nut slots too deep feeler gauges of
fret height should be placed under the fret file (2). To measure
the fret height drill a hole into a small piece of wood or metal and
then place this piece on the frets. Using the depth gauge of the
caliper the distance from the fingerboard surface can be measured
through the hole. The fret height is then easy to work out
by subtracting the thickness of the piece from the value measured.
A lot of guitarbuilders set the action at the nut without
taking any precise measurements – they just go by the impression
they get when pressing down the strings.
Another important thing is to make the slots slightly lower
towards the peghead side so that the strings rest exactly on the
front edge of the nut (the zero-fret position) and not somewhere
further back, which would be tantamount to a lengthening of the
scale and would guarantee intonation problems. To make the
slots lower towards the peghead side, hold the file or saw at an
angle. The nut slots should be made to precisely match the
strings, i.e. have the same curve and not be too wide. When you
move a string sideways it must not move at all in the nut. The
strings must be bent right at the nut edge and there must not be
any sharp edges anywhere either that could possibly damage the
strings. Only one half of the strings should actually be in the
slots; the top half of each string should protrude."
-Martin koch:Building electric guitars.
Fuck, nothing to it... I'll I had was a Victorinox multipliers and two slotted blanks from stew-mac. Didn't need the other one.
Took off the strings, the old nut slided right to the side with my thumb. Took the blank and filed it to size, leaving a millimeter or so to the height as workingground for fine tuning.. Filed the width to suit the cavity.
Slided the nut where the old one was and found out it was a tad too high, filed off the excess every now and then checkin things with strings on --> loosening the strings-->filing down--put strings, test. repeat.
I used an old string to do the final grinding of the slots... (BEAD)
..turned them black, but worked.
It took some time... I changed the bridge, pickups and the nut in one evening though.
-Martin koch:Building electric guitars:
"Setting the string height at the nut
At the nut the distance between the bottom of the strings and the
fingerboard surface should be no greater than the fret height. An
action that is too high in the nut area will lead to a wrong
intonation, the pitch becoming too high as the string is tensioned
too strongly when pressed down at the first fret. Besides,
the guitar will be uncomfortable to play because of the fingers
having to press harder and the strings feeling stiff. The fretheight
line drawn on the nut comes in handy now: file the nut
slots down to this line. See the section on how to make the neck
for details of how this is best done. Use a saw for deepening the
slots for the thin strings and special nut files for the other slots.
The slots for the bass strings can also be made deeper with a
needle file. Take each string out of its slot and put it into a
neighboring one before you deepen the slots. On radiused
fingerboards the height of the strings has to follow its curve and
the strings must all be equally high above the fingerboard. If you
press down the strings one by one now, you should need the
same amount of pressure for each string. Deepen the nut slots if
necessary until all strings feel similar. There should only be very
little room for the strings over the first fret when pressed down
between the 2nd and 3rd fret.
If the action is set too low, the vibrations cause the strings to
touch the frets and produce unwanted noises. If by mistake a nut
slot has been made too deep, replace the missing material with a
drop of super glue, allow it to harden overnight and then redo the
slot. If all nuts slots are too deep, glue a suitable piece of hardwood
veneer under the nut and then file the slots down to the
right depth. Cardboard or similar materials should not be glued
under the nut as they would only dampen the transmission of
vibrations. To prevent making nut slots too deep feeler gauges of
fret height should be placed under the fret file (2). To measure
the fret height drill a hole into a small piece of wood or metal and
then place this piece on the frets. Using the depth gauge of the
caliper the distance from the fingerboard surface can be measured
through the hole. The fret height is then easy to work out
by subtracting the thickness of the piece from the value measured.
A lot of guitarbuilders set the action at the nut without
taking any precise measurements – they just go by the impression
they get when pressing down the strings.
Another important thing is to make the slots slightly lower
towards the peghead side so that the strings rest exactly on the
front edge of the nut (the zero-fret position) and not somewhere
further back, which would be tantamount to a lengthening of the
scale and would guarantee intonation problems. To make the
slots lower towards the peghead side, hold the file or saw at an
angle. The nut slots should be made to precisely match the
strings, i.e. have the same curve and not be too wide. When you
move a string sideways it must not move at all in the nut. The
strings must be bent right at the nut edge and there must not be
any sharp edges anywhere either that could possibly damage the
strings. Only one half of the strings should actually be in the
slots; the top half of each string should protrude."
-Martin koch:Building electric guitars.
rayc
retroreprobate
I've done my own - you can buy slotted & blank pre-made ones but I chose to use a piece of brass, a range of files & a fine metal saw.
You can get a locksmith to do the work on a key cutting machine, (it'd use the original as a template), & then tidy it up/fine finish it.
You can get a locksmith to do the work on a key cutting machine, (it'd use the original as a template), & then tidy it up/fine finish it.
T
travelin travis
New member
Some links for you cornwall:
http://www.bryankimsey.com/ (lutherie, techniques, making a nut)
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/NewNut/newnut1.html
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/SetNut/setnut.html
http://users.powernet.co.uk/guitars/setup4.htm
Read and understand them all. Especially pay attention to nut slot depth (nut action) and how it works together with saddle height and neck relief. You should know how to set neck relief and saddle height before messing with a nut. You should also know how the fret work will effect action and buzzing.
If you start with a blank nut you'll need a few different grits of sandpaper and a flat surface for squaring up the bottom and sides of the nut and final finishing, a small flat file for shaping the nut and cleaning up the nut slot in the neck, a fine mechanical pencil or really sharp regular pencil for marking string slots, a set of feeler guages for setting nut slot depth, and some nut slot files (or alternative tools) for cutting the slots. Also, a dial or digital caliper would be nice for adjusting string spacing and a small vise for holding the nut during shaping. The last two tools aren't completely necessary. Some alternatives to nut slotting files are torch tip cleaners or bass/guitar strings epoxied to the edges of popsicle sticks, toothed feeler guages (use a small file), guaged jeweler's saw blades and saw, or needle files (pretty crude). Glue seems to be a preference thing: white glue, yellow wood glue, hide glue, ca glue (super glue). I'd use the yellow and let it dry over night. You'll need something sharp for starting the string slots too: jeweler's saw or feather edge file.
If you understand what you're doing I think you could get by with (here come the flames):
needle file set (shaping and finishing)
jeweler's saw (starting nut slots and cutting small guitar string slots)
strings and/or tip torch cleaners epoxied to popsicle sticks (cutting slots)
sandpaper (shaping and finishing)
blank or pre shaped nut
pencil (marking slots)
wood glue
That's no where near the $100 mark but you should be able to make a decent nut with that list. That should come up to more like $25-30. If you need to make another nut in the future you'll only need a pre shaped or blank nut.
A temporary fix for a low string slot is to mix some dust from the nut material with super glue, fill the slot with it, and recut the slot. You can run a small file over the backside of the current nut to get some dust or get some from a scrap nut.
Probably a better way is to use paper shims. Remove the nut and make sure the bottom is clean. Apply a light skin of glue to the bottom of the nut. Place the bottom on a thin piece of paper and apply some pressure. Trace around the bottom of the nut with a sharp xacto blade. Put the nut back on the guitar, string to pitch, and check to see if the nut slot is still too low. If it is, repeat the process until you have a good height. Now you'll need to adjust the other slots so that they aren't too high.
http://www.bryankimsey.com/ (lutherie, techniques, making a nut)
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/NewNut/newnut1.html
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Setup/SetNut/setnut.html
http://users.powernet.co.uk/guitars/setup4.htm
Read and understand them all. Especially pay attention to nut slot depth (nut action) and how it works together with saddle height and neck relief. You should know how to set neck relief and saddle height before messing with a nut. You should also know how the fret work will effect action and buzzing.
If you start with a blank nut you'll need a few different grits of sandpaper and a flat surface for squaring up the bottom and sides of the nut and final finishing, a small flat file for shaping the nut and cleaning up the nut slot in the neck, a fine mechanical pencil or really sharp regular pencil for marking string slots, a set of feeler guages for setting nut slot depth, and some nut slot files (or alternative tools) for cutting the slots. Also, a dial or digital caliper would be nice for adjusting string spacing and a small vise for holding the nut during shaping. The last two tools aren't completely necessary. Some alternatives to nut slotting files are torch tip cleaners or bass/guitar strings epoxied to the edges of popsicle sticks, toothed feeler guages (use a small file), guaged jeweler's saw blades and saw, or needle files (pretty crude). Glue seems to be a preference thing: white glue, yellow wood glue, hide glue, ca glue (super glue). I'd use the yellow and let it dry over night. You'll need something sharp for starting the string slots too: jeweler's saw or feather edge file.
If you understand what you're doing I think you could get by with (here come the flames):
needle file set (shaping and finishing)
jeweler's saw (starting nut slots and cutting small guitar string slots)
strings and/or tip torch cleaners epoxied to popsicle sticks (cutting slots)
sandpaper (shaping and finishing)
blank or pre shaped nut
pencil (marking slots)
wood glue
That's no where near the $100 mark but you should be able to make a decent nut with that list. That should come up to more like $25-30. If you need to make another nut in the future you'll only need a pre shaped or blank nut.
A temporary fix for a low string slot is to mix some dust from the nut material with super glue, fill the slot with it, and recut the slot. You can run a small file over the backside of the current nut to get some dust or get some from a scrap nut.
Probably a better way is to use paper shims. Remove the nut and make sure the bottom is clean. Apply a light skin of glue to the bottom of the nut. Place the bottom on a thin piece of paper and apply some pressure. Trace around the bottom of the nut with a sharp xacto blade. Put the nut back on the guitar, string to pitch, and check to see if the nut slot is still too low. If it is, repeat the process until you have a good height. Now you'll need to adjust the other slots so that they aren't too high.
Last edited:
N
notCardio
I walk the line
Hey Travis, that reminds me
How's the SG coming along?
No hurry, just curious.
How's the SG coming along?
No hurry, just curious.
R
RandyW
New member
Cornwall said:
Sorry if this has already been mentioned didn't want to read the slew of replies.
But if it is just the E slot I would a little bone dust with the super glue and build the bottom of the slot a little bit at a time till you get it a hair more than it has to be. Don't go crazy and fill it completely. Take a few inches of an old A string or any string slightly smaller than the E string, fold a piece of 150 grit sandpaper over it and take it down a few strokes at a time.When it is almost there start using 400 or 500 grit yell 3M sandpaper. Works great and you don't need a bunch of tools. Notice the ramp angle on the tuner side of the nut and emulate it on you E slot. I've made and repaired alot of nuts and the bass is the easiest of the bunch. I think the hardest is a mandoliin nut were talking 8 extremely minutely spaced slots here.
You will save enough to get a nice set of strings and have nutology mastered.
muttley600
Banned
A temporary fix only. The better option for a semi permanent fix is to shim under the nut with stiff thin card or better still veneer. Then lower the other three slots. Seriously, to cut a nut correctly and have it play with the best action and intonation involves far more than just whacking on a lump of bone, filing it to shape, then cutting some string slots.RandyW said:
Here is a list of some of the things a decent luthier will do and it is by no means exhaustive.
Get the nut cut to the correct profile giving the correct string break for the headstock angle and machine heads.
Get the correct string spacing for the neck leaving an even gap between all strings and the correct distance from the fingerboard edge both bass and treble side , or cut it as instructed by the player, some like wider spacing for certain strings.
Makes sure that the string slot is cut so as there is even smooth contact over the entire slot and slot runs straight to the machine head off the slot.
Make sure the strings are seated in the slot with the correct amount of string showing over the nut.
Make sure the strings are seated in the slot to the correct depth for best intonation and player comfort.
Make sure the slot is cut to the correct width for the gauge of string being used. Not too tight and not too wide.
Make sure the nut makes perfect contact with the fingerboard end, neck and headstock veneer if there is one.
Polish it to give a smooth even luster with no sharp edges at any point of contact with the strings or the fingers.
As I say not an exhaustive list. Each nut presents different things to focus on depending on the instrument and material.
I have done thousands of nut installs now and a well fitted and setup nut is a special thing. It is all in the detail.
If you think $80 is too much for fine precision work then go catch a cow and hack the bone to whatever shape suits you with whatever tools you have to hand.
Thinking about it my dentist charged me £300 to fill some teeth and polish them the other day. I have all the tools maybe I could get my buddies round and we could have a go ourselves. After all he's only a dentist how hard can it be. And as for that bloke that fixes my car, £60 an our labour whats all that about? Why should he get that
T
travelin travis
New member
muttley600 said:And as for that bloke that fixes my car, £60 an our labour whats all that about? Why should he get that
because you either don't know how or you don't want to do it yourself. making a nut or installing a radiator ain't dentistry.
T
travelin travis
New member
notCardio said:
I've been dragging my feet, had other things to do and pay for. I'll let you know when I get a chance to work on it.
muttley600
Banned
As it happens I can fix my car but I'm happy to pay someone to do it because my time is better spent doing other stuff like installing nuts and I don't do it day in day out and have the wealth of experience that that brings. My Bruv is a dentist and aside from the consequences of getting it wrong, he himself reckons that the average luthier is better skilled with their tools. A dentist you pay because of his experience and medical knowledge, a mechanic you pay for his experience and mechanical knowledge. A luthier you pay because of his experience and tool, acoustics, materials, and musical knowledge. There is one thing that is common to all and that is experience.TravisinFlorida said:
The point is that the OP was banging on about not wanting to pay someone $80 which at todays exchange rate for me £40 to fit a nut correctly. My point is that that $80 is going to take him about 10 years experience and some good tools to do it himself as well as an experienced luthier. By all means do it yourself I have no problem with that and I'm happy to offer advice but don't start by saying
and expect to get free advice. What he is going to get is advice from wannabe techs and hobbyists.
The truth is that on these these boards there are two maybe three people that could fit a nut from scratch correctly to a standard that would pass muster with most professional musicians and good guitar outlets. There are loads who do an acceptable job for themselves I'm sure....
I couldn't give a monkey's ass if he does it himself, but he ain't going to get serious advice by telling the few pro's here that we all charge too much.
T
travelin travis
New member
muttley600 said:
That may well be true but I think you know where any sane person would try to save the buck. Nut or tooth?
Muttley, I'm sure there are many recording engineers that hate the whole home recording thing too especially with amateurs offering recording services for peanuts. Most of those guys probably aren't up to the same level as the pro guys, some are. My opinion on pro level vs. amateur level in any field is that the person receiving (or diy) the service is the decider on what's important to him. Learn something, save a buck, and do a good enough job or pay for the best available. Maybe $80 for a nut doesn't fit into this guy's budget, maybe the guy is thrifty, or maybe he can't tell the difference in a $3 plastic nut and a $80 hand made one. I don't care really. I do like the open sharing of information though.
muttley600
Banned
Agree entirely, but if I may use another analogy..TravisinFlorida said:That may well be true but I think you know where any sane person would try to save the buck. Nut or tooth?
Muttley, I'm sure there are many recording engineers that hate the whole home recording thing too especially with amateurs offering recording services for peanuts. Most of those guys probably aren't up to the same level as the pro guys, some are. My opinion on pro level vs. amateur level in any field is that the person receiving (or diy) the service is the decider on what's important to him. Learn something, save a buck, and do a good enough job or pay for the best available. Maybe $80 for a nut doesn't fit into this guy's budget, maybe the guy is thrifty, or maybe he can't tell the difference in a $3 plastic nut and a $80 hand made one. I don't care really. I do like the open sharing of information though.
You don't go round someones house for dinner then shit on the carpet and moan about the smell!!
All the guy has to say is "can't afford that any chance of a little help." Not "you charge how much? No way, just tell me how to do it myself"
And don't get me wrong I've always said that I'm all for people having a crack at doing setup stuff themselves thats why I post. All I try to do is point out the best approach and possible pitfalls or tips.
Just gets up my nose when people think that I or other skilled people should work for minimum wage. But we've been down that road before
You on the other other hand are always measured in your questions and answers and I would happily offer advice for you to accept or reject
The flow of information is why I contribute here and other forums. I've learned a lot here about recording my instruments and am always willing to put something back.
T
travelin travis
New member
muttley600 said:
That's a good point.
C
Cornwall
New member
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come off as a money grubber or something, but, I'm a poor man. To me, 60 bucks is a HUGE thing, I mean, thats something that I come across once every 3 months or so. I didn't mean to offend people in the business, and I know you pay for experience, but it just doesn't seem appealing to me to pay someone to do it for me, when I can get the experience myself for just the price of the materials? I ranted a bit about that because I found out the price for the first time that day and freaked a little.
I've been reading the advice people have been giving me, and I appreciate it. I'm going to pick up a couple of blanks in the next week or so, and see how it goes. I have access to a fair ammount of the tools mentioned. I'll let you all know how it goes once I try. Thanks again!
I've been reading the advice people have been giving me, and I appreciate it. I'm going to pick up a couple of blanks in the next week or so, and see how it goes. I have access to a fair ammount of the tools mentioned. I'll let you all know how it goes once I try. Thanks again!
muttley600
Banned
Cornwall said:
No problem, I'm still poor even at those prices. But as my old Gran used to say "you can be poor but you don't have to be rude."
When you ready to start let us know and we'll talk you through your first efforts.
mshilarious
Banned
I think I understand the reaction. $60 an hour for nut work is high. Before Light & Muttley cut my head off, think for a minute about the car analogy: there are lots of lube shops that do the lower skill auto maintenance tasks. It ain't hard to change oil, so these guys set up an oil change assembly line, cut costs to the bone, and offer a cheaper service. But if they try to fix your transmission, drive away quickly! (if you car still runs) 
I don't know of too many luthiers (any, really) who are setup only guys. Nuts, strings, and bridges. Need a fret job? Maybe we'll do a quick polish. Neck reset? Sorry, we don't do that. But look around your shop and get rid of every tool you wouldn't need if you just did setups, and calculate the resulting reduction in your overhead, then set your hourly rate accordingly. I mean, no matter how well you describe the skills required for a setup, c'mon, it pales in comparison with doing a sunburst finish with pearl inlay and all that nice binding.
Probably there is almost no demand for such a service, because the cheap bastards either learn it themselves, or more likely go around with poor action and intonation. Most guitarists suck enough that they will play out of tune with a good setup anyway
Or they are talented and value their time, so they hire you
I don't know of too many luthiers (any, really) who are setup only guys. Nuts, strings, and bridges. Need a fret job? Maybe we'll do a quick polish. Neck reset? Sorry, we don't do that. But look around your shop and get rid of every tool you wouldn't need if you just did setups, and calculate the resulting reduction in your overhead, then set your hourly rate accordingly. I mean, no matter how well you describe the skills required for a setup, c'mon, it pales in comparison with doing a sunburst finish with pearl inlay and all that nice binding.
Probably there is almost no demand for such a service, because the cheap bastards either learn it themselves, or more likely go around with poor action and intonation. Most guitarists suck enough that they will play out of tune with a good setup anyway
Or they are talented and value their time, so they hire you
3
32-20-Blues
New member
Light said:
Forgive me, but isn't this forum entirely built around the premise of getting information for free?
muttley600
Banned
Yes, but Lights point I think, was that he was sounding off about the likes of us being rip off merchants and then asking for advice. Its all in the attitude I suppose. Anyhow Cornwall has apologised and explained. Thats good enough for me and I'm happy to offer him advice or help from here on.32-20-Blues said:
muttley600
Banned
I'll accept the car analogy but from a slighty different understanding. Changing the oil in a cars engine would equate to changing strings on a guitar. Adding petrol/gas would be tuning the thing. I would see cutting and setting the nut as equivalent to tuning the Carb. Something that requires a good deal of understanding and experience and has to be done after everything else is set right. Not something I would leave to a quicklube shop or tyre fitter.mshilarious said:I think I understand the reaction. $60 an hour for nut work is high. Before Light & Muttley cut my head off, think for a minute about the car analogy: there are lots of lube shops that do the lower skill auto maintenance tasks. It ain't hard to change oil, so these guys set up an oil change assembly line, cut costs to the bone, and offer a cheaper service. But if they try to fix your transmission, drive away quickly! (if you car still runs)
I don't know of too many luthiers (any, really) who are setup only guys. Nuts, strings, and bridges. Need a fret job? Maybe we'll do a quick polish. Neck reset? Sorry, we don't do that. But look around your shop and get rid of every tool you wouldn't need if you just did setups, and calculate the resulting reduction in your overhead, then set your hourly rate accordingly. I mean, no matter how well you describe the skills required for a setup, c'mon, it pales in comparison with doing a sunburst finish with pearl inlay and all that nice binding.
Probably there is almost no demand for such a service, because the cheap bastards either learn it themselves, or more likely go around with poor action and intonation. Most guitarists suck enough that they will play out of tune with a good setup anyway
Or they are talented and value their time, so they hire you
If I only had tooling to do setups the overhead would still be quite big. Fixed costs are usually higher than any capital expenditure in our business.
Not really it just requires a broader range of skills and experience. I have many skills with regard to guitar making and I'm acutely aware which are strong and which are weaker. I'm always learning and getting better. For example I can do real good binding real quick, I can bend sides by hand in no time I can carve a arched top in a day all after years of doing it and having a feel for it. Polishing I have to really work at, but I think most luthiers would point to finishing as their Achilles heal. A good sunburst is the hardest thing to achieve and a totally flat clear buffed finish nearly as hard. The main reason is that as Makers we are always nose up to the work and see every detail. We have to be perfectionists. I guess you have to pay for that too
Other than that good points about what people will accept as a good setup and often very true.
3
32-20-Blues
New member
muttley600 said:
That's cool, after many of these debates (and after consulting a luthier here who charges roughly twice what Light does) I realise that everyone needs to make a living, and that fret and nut work takes skill and time.
Furthermore, as I have pointed out in feedback to you and Light, i am always surprised at the level of detailed advice that you guys are willing to go into on your own time, and for nothing.
I realise now that it's probably an attitude thing, but I can also see the original posters point: without a knowledge of standard charges, being quoted 60 bucks to replace a nut can seem (initially) high.
Having said all that, here's my turn to get some free advice. Muttley, I don't know if you work that much on electrics, but can you recommend (off the top of your head) a reasonably priced, English brand soldering iron that would be suitable for guitar electronics? Just a makers name will do... E-Bay is flooded with cheap crap, so i'm heading in to Maplins at the weekend, and I want something basic, but reliable. Cheers!