Nuemann U87 vs sE Electronics SE2200A and other stuff

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homestudioguy

homestudioguy

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I spent some (excellent) :) time yesterday at Oxide Recording with owner and Tape Op Moderator Tony SanFilippo (http://www.oxidelounge.com/) and our multi-talented mutual friend and recording enthusiast Jeff Greenberg :cool: (http://www.100yearpicnic.com/).

The primary goal was to listen to the sE Electronics SE 2200-A LDC, the sE Electronics SE3 small? condensor mic and for me to have a chance to hear the ubiquitous Neumann U87 as I’ve never heard one before :eek: . All mics were run through a Pro Audio Design Aurora Pre directly into Neotek Elan 32 Channel Console into IZ Radar. Monitors were Mackie HR824’s.

We A/B’d the SE3 with an Audio-Technica Pro 37R on a Carvin Cobalt 750 Acoustic Guitar, A/B’d the SE2200-A with the U87 on vocals and then heard the SE3 as a drum set overhead mic along with the SE2200-A as a front mic for the set.

Long SDC stories short: The Pro 37R had a more pronounced top end than the SE3 but the SE3 covered the mids and lows much better. Surprisingly, when the 2 were blended together they provided an awesome acoustic guitar sound.

Long LDC stories short: The SE220A vs the U87 was somewhat surprising as the SE2200-A had a very similar sound to the U87 on the 2 vocal sources (Jeff and me) although the U87 provided a little more depth and airiness over and above the SE2200-A. However, the characteristics of the 2 were similar enough to require some focused listening to discern the differences. Overall, the $299.00 SE2200-A sounded surprisingly good comparatively with the $2849.00 U87.

Drum Set: The SE3 was placed 2 drumsticks high and a bit more above the snare pointing almost straight down. For the heck of it, I placed the SE2200-A in front of the set at about 4-5 feet just off center and then Jeff played away. With the SE3 as a single overhead, it did cover the overall set sound very well except for the low lows (although I was wanting just a little more hi-end and some more monitor volume may have provided that). When the SE2200-A and the SE3 were blended together, it provided a very useable drum set sound IMO.
 
Since I have never really cared for the sound of a stock U87, I do not find it surprising that a $300 mic sounds about as good.
 
Neumann vs sE

The Neumann U87 (ai I think) in this A/B was a nice very sounding mic, no doubt about it. :cool:
We actually switched on the 10dB pad on the SE2200A and brought the signal level back up to the U87's and in my opinion, it sounded even closer as it kicked up the highs and lows a bit on the SE2200A.
BG
 
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Interesting, for sure.

Was it an older u87 or newer??

The older ones are much better.

I dont care for them stock either , which is why SPAudio will be doing a labotomy on mine.
 
Nady TCM 1050

Check out the NADY TCM 1050 for a great sounding mic at a very low cost.
It's a U47 knock off.
I've used it for mandolin and vocals and it sounds unbelieveable to me.
 
I did a whole bunch of A/B tests with a bunch of cheaper $300 mics and a U87, and me and a bunch of other musicians/engineers picked a bunch of others for guitar and vocals before we picked the U87. It's all marketing. It's also old technology that they can reproduce and make better for a fraction of the cost in other countries where the wages are 1/100 of what they are here.
 
smuffjules said:
Check out the NADY TCM 1050 for a great sounding mic at a very low cost.
It's a U47 knock off.
I've used it for mandolin and vocals and it sounds unbelieveable to me.
Click to expand...

Have you ever used a U47?
 
A/B done with an older U87 w/Battery compartment

Tony shared with me that his U87 is a 1970's model with a battery compartment and he too noted that the older U87's were better than the new ones.
BG/HSG
 
smuffjules said:
I did a whole bunch of A/B tests with a bunch of cheaper $300 mics and a U87, and me and a bunch of other musicians/engineers picked a bunch of others for guitar and vocals before we picked the U87. It's all marketing. It's also old technology that they can reproduce and make better for a fraction of the cost in other countries where the wages are 1/100 of what they are here.
Click to expand...


It isnt all marketing...Neumann has created a name for themselves by making some of the finest mics in the world. I like the old neumann stuff better, but Neumann mics are still a force to be reckoned with. If people could make a microphone that could compete with some of the older neumann line, we wouldnt have people begging neumann to bring the old products back. Cheap knock-offs(china, malaysia) are just that. do ok for some things, but dont touch the real thing. The technology has not been reproduced(which is why people are begging for the old style neumanns)...now Microtech Gefell still uses the same techniques that Mr. Neumann pioneered, but some sweat shop in taiwan produced product isnt the real deal. Neumann has been around a while. Id sooner have just one u47 or m49 than a closet full of 100 dollar cheaply made condensors.A fine example of marketing is a 50 dollar behringer tube amp that claims to have "tube warmth"(coming from a led behind the fake tube). A fine example of marketing is some chinese POS saying "you get a sound comparable to a u87 in the same sleek look!"
I dont really see neumann being aggressive with advertising..the name speaks for itself. What we DO see is thousands of chinese/indian/polish/russian knock offs claiming to have the "vintage" sound but sound like ass. THAT is marketing.
 
BigRay said:
The technology has not been reproduced(which is why people are begging for the old style neumanns)...now Microtech Gefell still uses the same techniques that Mr. Neumann pioneered, but some sweat shop in taiwan produced product isnt the real deal.
Click to expand...

I have read that during the Cold War/Eastern Communist Bloc era, East German Microphone Engineers were sent to Communist China to teach them the high-level german microphone engineering techniques and that there are a handful of those Chinese engineers still alive and working in China. :eek:

So there may be some "real deal" mics coming out of China but I am sure they are not selling for $50.00. :rolleyes:

It is also quite possible that the engineering concepts from East Germany may be being used along side low-quality parts and low quality manufacturing.

BG/HSG
 
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homestudioguy said:
I have read that during the Cold War/Eastern Communist Bloc era, East German Microphone Engineers were sent to Communist China to teach them the high-level german microphone engineering techniques and that there are a handful of those Chinese engineers still alive and working in China. :eek:
BG/HSG
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...that is absolutely true...and it wasn't too many years ago that the US auto industry sent it's manufacturing engineers to post-war Japan to teach them how to build cars...and today, the German auto manufacturers work awfully hard just to keep up (with the Japanese)...my guess is, that it won't be long before the Chinese give the Euro-mic manufacturers the same stress...one Chinese manufacturer (sE) is building original designs like the Gemini dual-valve mic that are getting very positive reviews (even head-to-head with the benchmark mics)...but there will always be the guys who claim, "when they build a Lexus that'll stand up to my '54 Studebaker Hawk...blah, blah, blah)...
 
smuffjules said:
I did a whole bunch of A/B tests with a bunch of cheaper $300 mics and a U87, and me and a bunch of other musicians/engineers picked a bunch of others for guitar and vocals before we picked the U87. It's all marketing. It's also old technology that they can reproduce and make better for a fraction of the cost in other countries where the wages are 1/100 of what they are here.
Click to expand...

Oh. OK. I wish I had your ears. WHen I've compared Neumann and Gefell mics to Chinese mics, I hear a difference. I must be doing something wrong.
 
I don't think anyone should be allowed to form an opinion on a U87 or U89 without actually working with it during mixdown.
This is where they shine.

A/B'd against other mics, they generally sound a little boring, flat, unmagical. Even when compared to far cheaper mics.

But something about them just seems to "work" when put into a dense mix, in a way that no other mics I've ever heard can. It sounds like it belongs, has a midrange detail that somehow still survives when in competetion with plenty of other instruments, it takes EQ and compression beautifully, and best of all it just doesn't have any dislikeable characteristics, such as sibilance, scoop, boominess, etc, that often seems to manifest on 'better-sounding' mics once you start mixing them.
 
BigRay said:
It isnt all marketing...Neumann has created a name for themselves by making some of the finest mics in the world. I like the old neumann stuff better, but Neumann mics are still a force to be reckoned with. If people could make a microphone that could compete with some of the older neumann line, we wouldnt have people begging neumann to bring the old products back. Cheap knock-offs(china, malaysia) are just that. do ok for some things, but dont touch the real thing. The technology has not been reproduced(which is why people are begging for the old style neumanns)...now Microtech Gefell still uses the same techniques that Mr. Neumann pioneered, but some sweat shop in taiwan produced product isnt the real deal. Neumann has been around a while. Id sooner have just one u47 or m49 than a closet full of 100 dollar cheaply made condensors.A fine example of marketing is a 50 dollar behringer tube amp that claims to have "tube warmth"(coming from a led behind the fake tube). A fine example of marketing is some chinese POS saying "you get a sound comparable to a u87 in the same sleek look!"
I dont really see neumann being aggressive with advertising..the name speaks for itself. What we DO see is thousands of chinese/indian/polish/russian knock offs claiming to have the "vintage" sound but sound like ass. THAT is marketing.
Click to expand...

I guarantee that if you were blind tested you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
I've blind several engineers and producers here in Nashville, and they couldn't tell the difference.
Some people fiercely defend the old mics, usually because they have spent four of five grand on them and don't like being told that they could have got the same thing for a small fraction of the price.
 
Interesting take to look at what a mic DOESN'T do as opposed to what it does.

Makes for a very different perspective.
 
sdelsolray said:
Oh. OK. I wish I had your ears. WHen I've compared Neumann and Gefell mics to Chinese mics, I hear a difference. I must be doing something wrong.
Click to expand...

Did you compare them BLIND??
It's easy to say "Ah, yes, of course I hear the difference.." when you see the mic you are testing.
You have to put them along side a bunch of other mics blind.
As I said earlier, every guy who spent $5000 on a mic will always tell you he can hear a difference.
 
bleyrad said:
I don't think anyone should be allowed to form an opinion on a U87 or U89 without actually working with it during mixdown.
This is where they shine.

A/B'd against other mics, they generally sound a little boring, flat, unmagical. Even when compared to far cheaper mics.

But something about them just seems to "work" when put into a dense mix, in a way that no other mics I've ever heard can. It sounds like it belongs, has a midrange detail that somehow still survives when in competetion with plenty of other instruments, it takes EQ and compression beautifully, and best of all it just doesn't have any dislikeable characteristics, such as sibilance, scoop, boominess, etc, that often seems to manifest on 'better-sounding' mics once you start mixing them.
Click to expand...

ALLOWED????
 
I just wish I could have one day at a studio where someone would blind test me. I'd love to pick out my favorite mics just by ear and not sight or price, then after I commit to my opinions have someone tell me what the mics were.
 
soundchaser59 said:
I just wish I could have one day at a studio where someone would blind test me. I'd love to pick out my favorite mics just by ear and not sight or price, then after I commit to my opinions have someone tell me what the mics were.
Click to expand...

That is the whole point.
You might pick the neumann's, you might pick the nady's , but if you blind tested 100 engineers, you get a fair balance.
 
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