Now I Understand

[Robus]

Trying to keep up with all the mixes. Big improvement in the vocal in mixes 3 and 4. You've got it sitting much better. That strange roomy quality that several people mentioned is mostly gone. I actually liked where the bass was sitting in mix 2. You brought it up for that mix, and then lowered it in the subsequent ones. I thought the more prominent bass made the power rock sections of the song more--well--powerful. Take that how you want--my taste runs bassy. Drums are sounding much better, I'm hearing more of the overheads. All in all, great progress.

 

[BroKen_H]

I just set all the faders down, killed all the eq and took out EVERY effect (all three) I had going. I think the harshness everyone's hearing, and the pushed highs and lows might be coming from pushing things into others too hard...I may be gainstaging, and then it just gets shrill and unprofessional. I'll start with lower levels all around and see what comes about. (I did save it on 4 and can bring the piano double on the bass back up.)

 

[RAMI]

I'm at a bit of a loss. The only "trickery" I have on here at all is ..........

I was just going on two things: What you said and what I heard. You mentioned "Stereo Widening" and something about some "Phycho" effect. I thought those might have been responsible for what I heard, which was a very room-y vocal track.

If there's no compression on the drums, then something's making them sound squashed. It might just be because they're buried.

Haven't listened to Mix 4 yet. Will do that soon.

 

[RAMI]

Mix 4 is much better. Vocals sound better, drums are louder. Now, it might just be a matter of levels. The electric guitar might be a bit loud. I don't like the snare "Sound" now, nothing to do with level or compression. I'm just not crazy about the actual sound you chose. But now we're talking taste. Every mix is better than the last, that's a good thing.

 

[BroKen_H]

Great! I've been pulling effects off the vocals since the first mix. They psycho thing was another iteration of Polar. Couldn't get it to play well, so I deleted it altogether. I believe it was the majority of what was wrong in the vocal track. Does the snare need more snap, or more bottom, or ??? I've noticed this about SSD4. Even though I turn all the compressors off everything in the drum kit, everything still sounds compressed to start with (why I don't put any drum compressors on at all anymore. I like my snare a bit low and tight. I know most like a high snare with a little slack in the wires, but it's not me.
Also looking for a little more clarity between the two guitar amps. The Orange (Amplitube) on the right sounds different from the Fender (still Amplitube) on the left, but they don't have a lot of clarity. Likely playing style, but there's not much I can do about playing like Gumby. Should I try notching the EQ like I do with acoustics to make them stand out from each other? At least I'm getting decent comments on the tone of the amps (even though they're sims, and obviously so). Then only amp I have is a Roland Cube (which is an amp sim amp...) Not much help. Should I try using the Hamer super strat on my wall for the parts? It tends to have better clarity, but less balls than the Mockingbird...I know, not everyone's first picks for guitars, but they ARE fun to play.
I tried going to faders down and everything off, and pretty much ended up where I started. I'm pretty sure Mix 4 will be a better starting point, but I'm curious to A/B the two and see if there's more clarity in the new mix. My master was down around -10dB to accommodate the mix with all faders (except the snare) at parity or less. Some good use of compressors at that point could make things better. I have a few different ones, but I gravitate toward the Soviet C1-L1. It is VERY versatile.
If I use Mix 4, I am going to look at the gainstaging problem in Mix 4, though. Make sure that the level going into the vocal doubler is low enough, from the doubler to the compressor is low enough, the level going from there to the echo is low enough. Wondering if that's where the distorted vocal is coming from. Some of these plugs have "tube" type inputs that will "analog" distort if it's too loud without clipping. Most of the effects in Reason have a 3 led (green, yellow, red) input meter, as well as input and output volumes. Somewhat like outboard gear.

 

[RAMI]

There are others that know canned drums way better than me. I always thought that sampled drums are already pretty much processed, so adding compression is probably redundant, but I might be wrong.

I figure the logical way to do anything is this:

1) Listen to a sound with no processing.

B) Decide whether you like that sound or not.

3) If not, choose another sound until you find one you like.

D) Put that sound in the mix and see if you still like it

5) If not, then decide what you don't like about it.

Vl) Fix 5 by either trying another sound or using the right tools to make that sound better.

As simple as that sounds, it's really all there is to it. So, even though I don't know what to do with sampled drums, I figure there is no "Rule". Sometimes, they might need processing. Sometimes not.

 

[Greg_L]

My master was down around -10dB to accommodate the mix

And what can we learn from this?

 

[RAMI]

WOW! I missed that. -10 on the master?

How in all fuck does that even happen? I never have to touch my master and my mixes are averaging something like -20 and peaking at -10 at the most...This is before "Shmastering" obviously, but still.

 

[BroKen_H]

Thank you sir. That really is the way I see it too. I didn't realize the default in SSD was compression on everything until I made that mistake on a few songs. Then I was running them in and running my own compression and it was still overcompressed. Now I just leave them raw. AFA sound of the kit, I keep poking around in there, but like I said, I like a low tight snare, so what I use may not appeal to everyone. I'm wondering if a short tail eq'ed reverb would give the snare a bit better ring out. To my ears, that's what's missing on this particular snare. Worth a check. Just takes a few minutes.

 

[RAMI]

Thank you sir. That really is the way I see it too. I didn't realize the default in SSD was compression on everything until I made that mistake on a few songs. Then I was running them in and running my own compression and it was still overcompressed. Now I just leave them raw. AFA sound of the kit, I keep poking around in there, but like I said, I like a low tight snare, so what I use may not appeal to everyone. I'm wondering if a short tail eq'ed reverb would give the snare a bit better ring out. To my ears, that's what's missing on this particular snare. Worth a check. Just takes a few minutes.

Yeah, if you like that snare, it's fine. We're now talking personal preference. I wasn't even able to answer your question about what I don't like about it because I'm not even able to articulate it, other than to say it sounds fake. But I know that doesn't help you. Don't worry too much about that. If you like it, it's fine.

 

[Greg_L]

WOW! I missed that. -10 on the master?

How in all fuck does that even happen? I never have to touch my master and my mixes are averaging something like -20 and peaking at -10 at the most...This is before "Shmastering" obviously, but still.

Right. And your mixes sound clean and open and balanced and natural.

So again class, what can we learn from this?

 

[RAMI]

So again class, what can we learn from this?

Oh oh......Miss, can I go to the bathroom?

 

[Atkron205]

Nice song! I can relate to the lyrics, I suspect the motivation is a woman? not to get too deep but the same thing happened to me a couple of years ago. I agree on the verb, maybe add a touch of delay to the vocal, but I am a delay and verb whore! guess it stems from growing up in the 80s. there is a low mid rumble on the acoustic. good job man.

 

[Greg_L]

Oh oh......Miss, can I go to the bathroom?

You already went today. Finish your book report.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Right. And your mixes sound clean and open and balanced and natural.

So again class, what can we learn from this?

Lots of great advice in this thread! LOTS.

Broken, anything on gain staging is really important. The first mix in post one has pretty badly distorted vocals but subsequent mixes don't.
That tells us it's not committed distortion at the mic/preamp/converter, but something you did ITB.

No individual track should ever be clipping or peaking as raw audio with the fader at unity. That's very important.
If it happens, turn the gain down and re-record - You won't fix it after the fact.

Once you have a mix full of tracks, no aux or master should ever be clipping.
If an aux or master clips turn down the things that contribute to it...not the aux or master fader. (You can, of course, turn down aux faders if the master is clipping...You know what I mean)

It's entirely expected that all your track faders will get pulled back more and more the more you add things.

 

[RAMI]

 

[RAMI]

Sorry Broken, needed a little comedy break.

 

[BroKen_H]

Okay. I don't think I tracked wrong. Everything went in at about -20dB with the exceptions of the vocal (that went at -6, but not clipping as Steen pointed out) and the strings that went in somewhere near noise threshold. lol.
So, moving on. I need to watch RAMI's video, so give me a minute.

 

[RFR]

Lots of great advice in this thread! LOTS.

I guess the thread title takes on a whole new meaning, eh?

 

[BroKen_H]

Lots of great advice in this thread! LOTS.

Broken, anything on gain staging is really important. The first mix in post one has pretty badly distorted vocals but subsequent mixes don't.
That tells us it's not committed distortion at the mic/preamp/converter, but something you did ITB.

No individual track should ever be clipping or peaking as raw audio with the fader at unity. That's very important.
If it happens, turn the gain down and re-record - You won't fix it after the fact.

Once you have a mix full of tracks, no aux or master should ever be clipping.
If an aux or master clips turn down the things that contribute to it...not the aux or master fader. (You can, of course, turn down aux faders if the master is clipping...You know what I mean)

It's entirely expected that all your track faders will get pulled back more and more the more you add things.

And here I glean another little gem. You see, I never understood that last bit about the role of the faders (faderen?) Turn down the tracks (treece?) if the bus is clipping, and turn down the buses if the mast is clipping. Nice to know. This may seem obvious to some, but please remember, I've only been working at this for about 4 years, and only seriously in the last two.

---------- Update ----------

I guess the thread title takes on a whole new meaning, eh?