Not Happy With Mastering Results

  • Thread starter Thread starter moelar2
  • Start date Start date
Well, the first things I wold do is take the tape to a audio restoration place and have the original tape put in the kind of condition it need before I load anything on a R2R so Im not looking at money stuck to the Repro head on my recorder. If the resoration goes well Id transfer it all to hardisk using really high end converters 24/192 khz, Possibly the http://www.lavryengineering.com/ type. Id record everything right out of the recorder and not use the console. You don't want to make alot of passes on old tape. Then I'd start looking at errors, clicks and pops that can be repaired using denoise or Cedar retouch type of restoration plugs. Depending on the shape of the original tape, you might have lost some hf definition. Ive done mastering for audio cassettes before. Its a compromise most often than not, Im not set up for it anymore though. To make it compete with todays Pop releases would be a total destruction of the audio. You would like to make it sound better with a touch of vintage. The type of tools wuld vary depending on the type of music. Beatles music for the most parts isn't crushed like todays so you'll have lots of dynamic range to play with. I definitely would use the Weiss Eq-1Mk2(Cranesong Ibis maybe), a Cranesong Hedd, Manley Vari-Mu compressor or maybe a Maslec MLA-2....
I would use a Bryston amp and some nice Dunlavy monitors... ;)
As far as applying the equipment to the problem is pure fantasy until the 2 meet.

SoMm
 
I SEEE

In other words, it would be a process that would require baby steps, maybe a joint venture, A lot of time, a lot of that $$ @ss gear. That was a good point about the Hi FI loss. Reminds me of when I used to leave cassette in the car in the summer time. Or worst, recording albums back in the day from my mom's Dennon turntable to the panasonic 8 Track. LOL

Cla Clunk !!

I still have that 8 track though. LOL
ima pull it out



Malcolm
 
UPDATE...

We called the ME and talked to him about how we felt regarding the demo. He was VERY professional about the criticism we gave, had us come over that night, and listened to it with us. When he heard it, he appeared a little disconcerted about the fact that that actually left his studio. He said he knew exactly what was wrong with it, asked me to bring the rig back in, and said he woudl fix it. I asked him if he thought we had enough to work with, or whether I should re-track. He assured me that he could definitely bring it up several notches as far as overall fidelity and sound quality.

We'll probably be booking with him next week.

Sjoko has also undertaken to help me out, I'm very curious to see what he can do.

I'll post the re-mastered version once it becomes available.
 
I have re- mastered the one song, and am posting it back to you today.
A couple of 'conditions':
1. I did not listen to John V.'s remix or mastered version. Neither did I listen to your (moelar2's) version, but I took the mix and did a quick master on it, not a proper mastering job (*note - NOT a 'proper' mastering job. In other words I loaded it into the DAW and did it from there, I didn't put it through the mastering EQ's and compressors as I normally would).
2. I would like to point out that John V. is a good and well respected mastering professional.
3. And final point, please take this as hopefully helpful, and not as undue critisism.

First, the material. I do like this kind of music, and I think that's something that needs pointing out, as its always nice to work on stuff you like. I also like the song in question, its a solid piece.

However. Should the material have arrived here for mastering, I would have returned it, as I always maintain a condition - if I do not think I can do something justice, I won't work on it.

In this case there is a real problem with the mix. Its undefined (or "woolley"), lacks definition and therefore lacks the punch this kind of material needs. But the biggest problem is the way individual instruments / parts have been EQ'd (or recorded), which makes doing a good mastering job impossible.
The most 'in-your-face" example of this is the vocal v.s. the snare drum. The snare has a lot of top and no bottem, while the vocal has no top. In mastering you would try and give the vocal some top, and the snare some balls. However, in this case the vocal simply has NO top ....... and mastering can only enhance or reduce what is already there (it cannot add what is NOT there), and the top the vocal needs is in the same frequency band as the top the snare already has to much of. Therefore, trying to enhance the vocal makes the snare unbearable and vica-versa.

How to solve the problem? It seems like the problem is in a couple of area's, and of cause this is nothing but an "educated guess".
1. Whoever did the recording / mixing was limited by gear and / or acoustic environment, and could simply not hear what was happening.
2. The recording chain for the vocal must have been awful, there is not top end present whatever.
3. Limited experience.

How to put it right?
I would suggest a couple of things. Redo the vocal first of all, and make sure it has some top so it can cut through and sound decent. Second, get some help with mixing it. Do you know anyone else with a well equipped home studio? Can anyone here do a better job? Then when you're done with the remix, have it mastered again.
Don't ask John to redo it now, talk to him, tell him you appreciate your mix / sound isn't good enough, ask him to cut you a deal if you can bring it back to him when you've done some more work.

Really, you guys should do a lot more file swapping. That's the way to learn, work on each other's stuff.

I hope the above helps. You're welcome to post my "mastered" version, all I could do really is pump the shit out of it. But keep in mind - its not a job I would normally have done commercially


;)
 
Last edited:
Sjoko...

whoa! That was a lot to take in.

Thanks for taking the time to work on my stuff, as well as write your thoughts out.

Vocal Signal Chain: NT2 into Mackie 32*8 into Layla.

Mix: It was substantially below par. Again, that was definitely the song that needed the most work. The mix on the other songs were better, which is likely why John was able to work with them more. I have considered letting someone else mixing - If you know of anyone who would do, for pay, I would be more than glad to have a word with them and hopefully come to an agreement.

Now, when you refer to "top" and "bottom," exactly what type of freq's are talking about? bottom: 200-800k? top: 3-6K?

Again, thank you for your help. The worst thing that could come out of all this is that i've learned some valuable stuff! Thats a good deal. :)
 
mastering

hi dude
I have had a listen to the songs before and after and have sent you an email, I master full time and occasionally post on this forum. If you want to set up and ftp I wil be happy to rattle off a few masters in my studio down time for you for free. How many songs on the album? Is there a dead line for it to be fisnhed?
If I can help you avoid spending any more money il be happy to help out email me at altitude@ihug.co.nz. Talk to you soon
regards
Enforcer{EMC}
 
Hey moelar2,
Did you take your songs down? The page doesn't work for me (though my internet has been a really screwy lately so it could be on my end)... But if you did take them down, could you please put them back up? I'd really like to hear all of them and also what Sjoko was able to do with it!
I'll probably be back online later tonight, so if you could leave them up for a day or so, I'd really appriciate it! :)

Thanks,
-tkr
 
Tekker...

Sorry about not posting earlier, for some reason I didn't get a message in my email saying that you had replied...

I did take the songs down. I will gladly put them up for you if you want to listen to them. They should be up by Friday night.

Thank you for your interest.
 
Damnit, I wanted to hear the songs. His FTP went down or something.
 
Ok, here's my mix...


And just for a reference, here's the previous mastering guy's mix...


Hope you like it! :)

-tkr
 
mastering e.t.c.e.t.c.e.t.c..

i know the dilemma you must be going through.for a start i have a roland recording unit and currently recording an album clocking up a lot of "man hours".when i listen back to mixes ,i think f#$# this is shit.Then i chucked on sherl crows "sherl crow" album.and apart from the songwriting the enginnerring(and mastering)blows me away.the sound is like a landscape,art within itself,the sound is in 3d,like a musical piccaso.hard to put into words.all these tricks and studio wizzardry buzz threw my ears.how the hell did they do that,and why cant i do it on my 2000$ home unit?well then ithought for a start sherl and co had"real instruments"e.g. longhorn guitars(5000$) lap pedel steel($$$_ e.t.c.not to mention probaly a spare 100,000 grand,THEN the mastering."
i think anyway as they say rule 1=there is no rules.i reckon it comes down to(songwriters perspective) the singer, the song,then all the other parts ,production,mastering all which is art within itself.
hope this helps your songs..
 
I've had problems with Mastering Engineers now and again. I finally found a couple people I recommend to bands when they come in. Most Mastering Engineers will give you a copy of what was done as a proof before it is considered 'finished'. The one's I like will do adjustments for free. Also it's a good idea to be there while they're mastering. Sometimes my clients will ask me to be there while their stuff is being mastered.

Something worth noting is when I do a mix for a band I'll insert a linked dual compressor on the stereo mix signal and squash it to get a sense of a faux mastering. I won't actually use it when I mix down to tape, CD, DAT, or what-have-you but at least I'll know vaguely what it's going to sound like before it goes through the mastering.

One quick story, I was sitting in with a band I recorded during their mastering session and they brought a RATM album to compare the recordings. One thing the mastering guy said before he played it through his speakers was, "now keep in mind you didn't spend $300,000 on the recording". Ironically it actually sounded better than the RATM album, we were all shocked and happy.

Mastering to me is something that should be subtle and bring out just a little more out of the recording. I don't like to work with digital EQ especially when it comes to mastering engineers. There have been very few that passed my approval but that is few and far in-between.

--Adam Lazlo
 
masterign problems

I agree with analogelectric
Unfortunatly alot of people call themselves mastring engineers but really alot of them dont have a clue what thre doing. A good mastering engineeer allows the mixing engieners ideas to come to fruition allt hat hard work that he has done need to be heard in the final master. I often when mastering for the studio or clients consult with them on different aspects of the mix as well as talking to the engineers and try to get a blend of what there both trying to achieve. Often te studio has me on call so that they pipe me a mix while the clients are there for a rough master to show the clients what the mix is going to end up like.

But I am sad to say there are some shocking shisters out there that call them selves mastering engineers and I wouldn't get them to master one of my "turds".

A good masterng engineer can do wonders with a mix and there is no point in spending 6 months doing and album and the skipping on the mastering . But how to find a good a mastering engiener is the trick . If you have any problems with the mastering feel free to email me I have been mastering full time now for 6 years and willb e happy to answer any questions you guys might have about mastering thats why I occasionally post here.
 
As part of our terms & conditions here we inform mastering clients that their material will be kept in the mastering system for two weeks after the date of mastering. This gives clients ample time to evaluate the master. If a clients wants to make a change, we can pull up their file and effect the changes required.
The above only applies to sonic changes, changes in play order etc. are charged for at the normal rate.

I believe the above is fair, and it ensures we do as good a job as possible at all times. The average of requests for a change is under 40 : 1, we hardly ever get anything back. But then, most of our clients are studios / producers / artists / record companies we have delt with for many many years, so they know what to expect from us (and we know more or less what to expect from them). Most mastering houses do not offer similar terms, and I do understand why they don't, as it would be difficult to offer the same without a regular client base.

However, if you need a mastering service, I would advise you to always ask for some free time to effect change(s) if needed.
 
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