Normalizing on MR8

  • Thread starter Thread starter Laura C
  • Start date Start date
Ed Dixon said:
That is not an answer to the question. Please get the quote right if you want to discuss a subject.

Ed
I'm also referring to the other threads where this exact subject came up.

If your knowledge of digital theory is so vast -- then it's inexplicable that you can champion normalization as a worthwhile process. You know the degradation it causes - you know that it isn't the most effective tool to raise level (again, due to transients negating the practical amount of gain) -- so what gives?? why are we having this discussion if you already know what I'm talking about, yet argue against it???
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
:rolleyes:
Digital recording principles are well-defined and not "theory" in a literal sense.

Also untrue. Perhaps you need to go back and re-read the text books on Nyquist sampling. That's where all of this started and still continues today.

Thousands of text books details the theory of audio and how the process works both in comptuers and with the human ear. There is no art to that all.

Where art comes in the process of taking audio recordings and producing a finished product. Much like the artist that produced the are recordings in the first place, the audio engineer works to produce a result that seems best to him/her. You could pass the same data to three work class audio engnieers and get three somewhat different mixed results. There is nothing wrong with that, as different people have different ideas of what the best sound might be.

Ed
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
I'm also referring to the other threads where this exact subject came up.

OK, then point out the other thread where I used the term "no loss". I don't remember that, so perhaps you can point it out.

Ed
 
Ed Dixon said:
OK, then point out the other thread where I used the term "no loss". I don't remember that, so perhaps you can point it out.

Ed
Forget about it -- how about simply answering this question, instead?

I'm really tired of this circular argument.


Blue Bear Sound said:
If your knowledge of digital theory is so vast -- then it's inexplicable that you can champion normalization as a worthwhile process. You know the degradation it causes - you know that it isn't the most effective tool to raise level (again, due to transients negating the practical amount of gain) -- so what gives?? why are we having this discussion if you already know what I'm talking about, yet argue against it???
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
Forget it - how about simply answering this question?

I'm tired of this circular argument.

Sorry, that's not good enough. You mada a claim about a previous statement. Either produce the quote or withdraw the claim.

Ed
 
If your knowledge of digital theory is so vast -- then it's inexplicable that you can champion normalization as a worthwhile process. You know the degradation it causes - you know that it isn't the most effective tool to raise level (again, due to transients negating the practical amount of gain) -- so what gives?? why are we having this discussion if you already know what I'm talking about, yet argue against it???
 
Sorry, that's not good enough. You mada a claim about a previous statement. Either produce the quote or withdraw the claim.

You address this first, then we'll move on.

Ed
 
Yup - I do take it back -- looking back at the thread - you didn't actually "say it"....

But I would still like you to address my last question.......
 
OK, that's better.

Now which question do you want to address? If it involves something I said previously, let's include that so we're clear on what is being discussed.

Ed
 
This one...

You know the degradation normalization causes - you know that it isn't the most effective tool to raise level (again, due to transients negating the practical amount of gain) -- so what gives?? why are we having this discussion if you already know what I'm talking about, yet argue against it???
 
Ed... I'm not interested in an argument, I do happen to respect your knowledge - I think I have been misinterpreting elements of your posts.

Your last post in the other normalization thread pretty much answered my last question.
 
The concept of normalization is to raise the level of audio without changing the dynamic range or adding distortion. Various approaches exist that address that process, and not all are the same.

Any digital signal processing process will usually introduce some changes in the overall audio. That is a general consequence of the digital domain. This includes EQ, normalization, compression, limiting, and most other similar processing options.

Samples are little more than a volume level at a point in time. The question is how to process given what you have to start with and what you want to end up with.

Using a simple example can sometimes help. Suppose the audio is on a scale from 1 to 10, and there are four samples. Suppose the sample values are 2, 0, 6, and 5. The max value is 6 on a scale of 10. So you decide to set the third sample to a value of 10 (ignoring for the moment at most normalization approaches actually shoot for a little less that actual max). That is an increase by a factor of 10/6 or about 66%. That means that the 2 value now needs to be 66% higher (we’re using linear scale here again for simplicity). But that is a value of 3 1/3 which is not on the 0 to 10 scale. So the nearest point is used, which is 3. That’s where a point to adjustment occurs where you have approximated the overall result a little. So when the dust settled, you might end up with values of 3, 0, 10, 8.

The good news is that modern audio is sampled at usually 44KHz and 16-bit resolution. This means that the scale is much larger than 0 to 10 and ranges from about –32000 to +32000. When digital processing is done, the scale is many times smaller and the adjustments, like in the simple example, are tiny in comparison to the overall level. If it weren’t this way the mix down process it self would destroy the result as it has to adjust the volume of every sample as they are combined based on the level setting of the mixer.

One of the most common uses of normalization is for audio that represents telephone voice mail messages. Many people speak softly, and many connections are not good. The result is quite often an audio file that is otherwise very hard to hear, even with the speakers on max. Once the data is normalized, it becomes much easier to hear, as the character of the original is effectively not changed, but the volume is much louder. The key in developing normalization algorithms for telephone audio is knowing what to ignore. For example virtually all such audio contains a large blip at the front (basically the off hook sound) and usually a similar event near the end usually consisting of a combination of touch tone input to stop the recording and the hang up event. Good normalization algorithms will ignore these peaks and work with the data included inside that represents the true caller audio.

Normalization is a highly useful process. Like most other forms of digital signal processing, it still boils down to using the tools best suited to the need at hand. There is no “One size fits all” when it comes to digital signal processing.

When I first get an audio WAV in the mix phase, I first look at it using a WAV edit tool. That way you can quickly get a visual image of what you have coming in. Things like peaks and silence periods are immediately obvious. Also things like noise at the start/end that needs to be immediately removed/erased.

If there are a lot of peaks, then normalization may buy you little or nothing. If the WAV is just recorded low, then it works wonders. Also have normalization algorithms that offer the audio engineer some parameter control is also very useful. Things like auto gain adjustment and peak limiting can sometimes be very handy to work a difficult WAV file.

My profession is as a software engineer, which is what I have done for 35 years. One of the areas I have spent some time over the last few years is audio processing of WAV data. This is real time stuff and separating the wheat from the chaff is the name of the game. While somewhat different from Hi-Fi CD audio, the digital concepts are quite similar. You have this stream of digital data and you goal is to modify it according to some goals and constraints.

It was well said by “dave in Toledo”. There is a lot of room for opinion, judgment and guess work in the audio mixing world. While there’s a lot of science behind it, there’s a lot of art in the process and room for a lot of views.

Ed
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
Ed... I'm not interested in an argument, I do happen to respect your knowledge - I think I have been misinterpreting elements of your posts.

Your last post in the other normalization thread pretty much answered my last question.

I'm not in the same league with either of you guys... Even so, I think it's a great thing that BB and Ed have steered this thing into a passionate yet respectful debate. There are other places on this site where this hasn't happened. Thanks for raising our standards. I for one appreciate it. And I'm learning a few things too.
 
I don't have a degree (at least not in this stuff) and I haven't read the book, but my ears tell me after using normalization that it degrades the sound. The mixes simply don't sound as good afterward. Maybe my ears lied?
 
Thanx to both Ed and Blue. Good thread.

So that's the 'why' and 'if', now the 'what'?

What is a good normalizing plug in/.wav editor?

What is the best plug in compressor available, free or otherwise?

P.S. I was starting to feel like a small child witnessing quarreling parents...

Someone tell me it will be alright?
 
kdgospel said:
I don't have a degree (at least not in this stuff) and I haven't read the book, but my ears tell me after using normalization that it degrades the sound. The mixes simply don't sound as good afterward. Maybe my ears lied?

With any audio tools, the result is dependant on the approach used by the tool. I've seen compression and normalization tools that just did awful, and others that worked really well.

Most compressors used in guitar signal chains I never cared for. However many live PA systems have very good compressors that are used every day.

It boils down to finding what you have, and which parts work best, and in what order. Your ears are your best resource. It if sounds bad, it probably is.

Ed
 
Man, I left the office for a few hours and just look at the wealth of information that exploded in this thread! So glad you guys had a spirited debate, and so happy that the tone took an ultimate turn for the better. (But I'm going to have to draw the line somewhere - while I'm grinning at the sense of community that's developing here, I'm gonna have to ask you not to break out in spontaneous choruses of Kum-bah-ya, okay? )

Seriously, I learned a lot. Thank you for hashing it out here.

Laura
 
Damn... I was just about to hit the opening chord to "Michael Row Your Boat Ashore", when you put the kibosh (sp?) on sappy campfire songs... :(

;) :D
 
Back
Top